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Goosk-KT

Is GP system broken?

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Goosk-KT   

Recently i saw myself tempted on trying to get 5 star, wich also made me wonder how long would it take to get 5 star and how's the current GP system.
A few maths later here's the results:


The max amount of gp obtainable per week (IDL / OW / Dredge / Arenas / KBF / Glory / Tenacity / Spire / EB / IWW / Illuma and norsvold gp quests / upper abyss siege / Panestera / Evangale / Kaldor) is 21765 (23197 if you use value boost pack) if you win every single instance and siege that is.


Now lets compare this with the current asmodian governor wich has 1 879 368 glory points, it would take approximately 1 year and 7 months to reach governor status with the perfect player.
Making the stats more realistic: instead of winning 100% of the instances and siege  you win lets say 70% and lets add some more time for a new player to even be able to do the said instances and sieges. we're looking at a period of over 3 years for the most dedicated of players to be able to reach governor (this of course assuming the current governor will not get any gp for the next 3 years).
 

I dont think this is fair or balanced.
Solution? increaseing the daily gp loss could work. though i think the best solution would be to simply cut by half every player's gp every week. this would decrease the gap and give more players the oportunity to work for their rank.

Does anyone share  my opinion or has a different one? im down to discuss.

Edited by Goosk-KT

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Heat-KT   

I agree with you and I would like to add that it is nearly impossible especially for new players (or old players who want to reroll class, faction, server) to achieve such amounts of GP as back in the day people would get 5550 GP a day from trading in the abyss points, which is huge advantage for old school players.

In my opinion your suggested GP reduction system is too complicated for NCsoft or for players to comprehend, easier and maybe more fair approach- GP seasons. Like in league of legends, right? every year start with 0 GP. Yearly full-wipe of glory points I think its easier for players and the company to control.

 

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Bryos-DN   

I kind of wish the mistranslation deal from the 5.3 GP changes were true (monthly changes to rankboard).

What I would change is make the monthly GP requirement based on rank. The higher the rank, the higher the requirement (and overall increase it from 1,450 GP).

I might also consider adding a third rank point-system, like, Siege Points, only rewarded from fortresses or big PvP events. These would determine the ranking for ranks higher than 5 stars (these included or not).

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Aly-DN   

First, we no longer lose GP each day. Our GP is our GP forever. Instead, a player needs to gain a minimum amount of GP each month in order to remain on the rankings. (I believe that amount if 1450, but not 100% sure.) If someone does not make this amount, it doesn't matter if they have 1 million GP and it doesn't matter that they log in every day. They will lose their rank until such a time that they make 1450 GP.

I understand what you are saying about new players/characters and can sympathize, but with any discussion like this we also need to keep in mind the opposite side of the changes you want to see made. What if I am an old-time player who has played the same character for 5+ years, have remained active, attend sieges and enjoy running PvP instances. I worked towards attaining a rank and use that rank in my daily game play. In fact, I am now associated with my rank just as much as I am associated with my character name or the look of my character. Heat suggests that we just tell those veteran players tough poopy. No one cares what you've done. We are wiping the slate clean every year. Imagine doing a name wipe every year and making people fight for their names. Goosk's suggestion wouldn't work because we don't lose GP each day, though I guess we could increase the amount of GP that someone needs to earn each month in order to stay on the rankings and decrease the max amount of GP you can get for any one activity. That would make only the most active players on the rankings, but it isn't going to displace an active, long playing character.

The way I see it is that an xform should be a long term goal. It shouldn't be something easily attainable by anyone new to the game. It should be a reward for those that have played their character a long time and learned the game.

Let me give you an example. Let's say someone acquires an account. First day ever playing Aion and they step into a fully leveled and geared character that is the Governor of their faction. So now we have a unique transform that has often been viewed as a leader and someone who should understand everything about Aion in the hands of someone who knows nothing about the game. How does this help anyone? The faction looses because normally it takes ages for someone to get to Governor and here they have someone who literally has never been to Poeta/Ishalgan or led an alliance or even popped an arti. I would argue that the person themselves loses because talk about pressure! Suddenly they are the top banana and they can't even tell you how many temporal stones you need to pop Wildsurge.. or where to get them. It's better to let these things happen slowly and naturally. You don't need a transform to experience all aspects of the game. You don't need a transform to be good at the game. You don't even need rank any more to wear the best gear.

Having a transform shouldn't be fair or balanced. Rather, it should be just a little something special for people that have stuck it out in Aion for a long, long time.

Edited by Aly-DN

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Gabe-DN   

I don't know if this helps but I had quit the game for quite a while when Archeage came out so at that time I think I was a general or around the #30 spot but I pretty much fell completely off the ranks.  I came back and decided to climb the ladder so I made 5 star quite a while ago and I think I just got month 14 prestige rewards and I am not a solid GP grinder.  You have realize a large number of people only get their GP from siege.

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GP doesn't decay anymore.

The AP system was flawed, but the GP system is even more flawed, especially in a f2p p2w scenario.

The only way for the officer system to work is to:
A1: decay GP based on a STIFF percentage of a player's max GP, increased based on rank Flat decay can be overcome, and GP totals will continue to rise over time and gate players from ever attempting to challenge for a high rank. Percentage loss eventually hits a point where you can't earn GP anymore, making a forced time ceiling so people have a chance of dethroning the active leadership.
OR
A2: only count the highest 8 weeks of GP gain from the last 10 weeks toward the ranking ladder. This means players can take breaks or vacations without losing rank, or have a lazy week or busy week here and there, but otherwise they will have to be actively pursuing rank almost every week to hold a high position, and with a rigorous routine, could take an officer transformation position in 2 months.
B: Base GP gain exclusively on unboosted AP gain from unique pvp kills per day, with reasonable diminishing returns for successive kills on the same target per day, as well as on siege targets, with pvp kills inside a siege zone granting a large increase in GP gained from the kills. Other activities like instanced PVP would give undiminished GP gain, since it takes place on the instance server and uses a separate kill list.

What these changes would do is create an officer system where high ranks are held only by the thirsiest and most dedicated PVPers, and only those who are consistently active, participating in every aspect of pvp and faction activities.

It'll never happen though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The gp system was originally made for a p2p game where the people who played enough to hold rank were paying out their ass AND dedicating time in order to do so. NA would never get a custom rank system to suit it's f2p needs.

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Bryos-DN   
1 minute ago, Disregard-DN said:

The AP system was flawed, but the GP system is even more flawed, especially in a f2p p2w scenario.
 

I really dont get this reasoning. The GP system might not be perfect, but it is FAR FAR FAAAAR superior to the AP system.

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Just now, Bryos-KT said:

I really dont get this reasoning. The GP system might not be perfect, but it is FAR FAR FAAAAR superior to the AP system.

because it is money locked more than time locked. AP you, for the most part, had to play the game, farm instances, farm guards, farm afk officers, farm everything, to get it done. AP instances generally didn't have resets available during the time when they were the method of rank control. the only pay to win aspects were that an AP boost scroll would give you an advantage for ap gained from pvp. I was okay with the ap system.

the GP system decayed a little more steeply than the ap system, but it also came with 2 flaws: the AP to GP conversion quest that persisted for months after the initial change, allowing high-gain players to compound their gp gain far beyond the rate a normal player could accomplish, and the EB/IS reset scroll system which allowed people to effectively purchase a GP advantage. Blackcrow took governor, sure, but he did like 20 EBs a day to get there, AND manipulated siege to be able to do it. droppin bills AND cheating to rise to the top of a garbage system.

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Lumin-DN   

I don't really see how using reset scrolls is buying a gp advantage.  You still had to actually participate in those instances in order to gain the benefits.  You were still playing the game.  

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Bryos-DN   

Well, but you are comparing the P2P AP system with the F2P GP system. We would have eventually received reset scrolls for AP instances, and that would have been far worse considering AP instances can be easily exploited (not in the literal sense) to be done solo.

GP farming requires time investment just as much. The only instances that reward it are IS, EB, DD, SS and ToE, all of which require coordination (much less for IS though, lol). Requires you to attend sieges, do battlegrounds, do invasions and Sky Island. If you want to push for high ranks, you have to be active.

The AP to GP quests were BS, yes. But, they have been gone for two years now.

And, if we are talking about fairness, the AP system was stupid in the sense that dying, gearing up, sustaining that gear or even just getting supplies or skins would mean you would derank.

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Bryos-DN   

Oh. Forgot to add:

And Crucible Spire. Easy instance, but requires time investment to level up and learn how to deal with each floor in your way.

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8 hours ago, Disregard-DN said:

because it is money locked more than time locked. AP you, for the most part, had to play the game, farm instances, farm guards, farm afk officers, farm everything, to get it done. AP instances generally didn't have resets available during the time when they were the method of rank control. the only pay to win aspects were that an AP boost scroll would give you an advantage for ap gained from pvp. I was okay with the ap system.

the GP system decayed a little more steeply than the ap system, but it also came with 2 flaws: the AP to GP conversion quest that persisted for months after the initial change, allowing high-gain players to compound their gp gain far beyond the rate a normal player could accomplish, and the EB/IS reset scroll system which allowed people to effectively purchase a GP advantage. Blackcrow took governor, sure, but he did like 20 EBs a day to get there, AND manipulated siege to be able to do it. droppin bills AND cheating to rise to the top of a garbage system.

Well, people easily found ways around the AP system with statics and being fed AP. It was very easy to quickly accumulate AP if your faction held uppers and Divine, and you had a static.  You  didn't even have to farm guards, you could farm keys (easy)  or pay someone to open chests which was quick and easy.

The AP system absolutely was far worse than the GP if you held high rank - transforming  was much more expensive and high ranks gained almost nothing but lost a lot upon death. In this aspect, the GP system is  far superior.

You're complaining about a specific Governor who, let' say-  liked to take an unusual flight path around Pradeth , prior to that, some people AP traded in order to obtain or maintain high rank. Both systems had/have abusers, some people will take advantage of exploits no matter what system is used. It would have been a good idea to roll back the GP for those people who took advantage of various instance exploits and obtained GP (IS mechanics and the CD exploit on various instances) - but most people just got a slap on the wrist.

7 hours ago, Lumin-DN said:

I don't really see how using reset scrolls is buying a gp advantage.  You still had to actually participate in those instances in order to gain the benefits.  You were still playing the game.  

 

Edited by Calista-DN

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Aly-DN   
8 hours ago, Calista-DN said:

*snip*

You're complaining about a specific Governor who, let' say-  liked to take an unusual flight path around Pradeth.

*snip*

 

200.gif

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19 hours ago, Aly-DN said:

First, we no longer lose GP each day. Our GP is our GP forever. Instead, a player needs to gain a minimum amount of GP each month in order to remain on the rankings. (I believe that amount if 1450, but not 100% sure.) If someone does not make this amount, it doesn't matter if they have 1 million GP and it doesn't matter that they log in every day. They will lose their rank until such a time that they make 1450 GP.

I understand what you are saying about new players/characters and can sympathize, but with any discussion like this we also need to keep in mind the opposite side of the changes you want to see made. What if I am an old-time player who has played the same character for 5+ years, have remained active, attend sieges and enjoy running PvP instances. I worked towards attaining a rank and use that rank in my daily game play. In fact, I am now associated with my rank just as much as I am associated with my character name or the look of my character. Heat suggests that we just tell those veteran players tough poopy. No one cares what you've done. We are wiping the slate clean every year. Imagine doing a name wipe every year and making people fight for their names. Goosk's suggestion wouldn't work because we don't lose GP each day, though I guess we could increase the amount of GP that someone needs to earn each month in order to stay on the rankings and decrease the max amount of GP you can get for any one activity. That would make only the most active players on the rankings, but it isn't going to displace an active, long playing character.

Abyss ranking is a competitive element in Aion. I think to be competitive, players must remain competitive, so it shouldn't matter how hard they worked to achieve their rank; unless they continue to work equally hard to retain that rank, it should be taken away from them. Just because someone worked really hard over the years to attain Governor, it shouldn't mean they can be allowed to be any less diligent than a new player right now who's trying to get Governor. This should be true no matter what rank you are, because that's just the nature of competition. This is very different from a player's name or appearance, which have no competitive bearing. 

If you ask me, 1 year is too long for a ranking season. I'd be comfortable with a 3 or 4 month period. 

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Aly-DN   

But the current system says that in order to keep your current rank, you have to be active.. and not just logging in. You have to gain 1450 GP each month. You can argue that that number is too small. 

I beg to differ about the names not being competitive. After the merge there were many many players who were ticked off that they lost the fight for a name they felt they had a right to. It was a competition for names that more than one person had held and both wanted. 

Ranking is not competitive in the way you are thinking.. not in Aion. Though it's broken, Tenacity has the kind of ranking you are talking about. Xforms are not and should not be the same as PvP rankings in Tenacity. As I said at the end of my post that you did not quote, an Xform is more like a small reward for those players who have been playing Aion for a long while. It is a badge of longevity, as well as activity. It doesn't mean you are the best at anything.. just that you have been at this for a long while. 

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Goosk-KT   

I think some people are missing the point. im not saying to take away the rank from people that worked hard to get it but reduce the gap to something possible to archive.
The current gp system works exacly like the money pyramid scam, the last people joining are nyerked.

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Gabe-DN   
32 minutes ago, Goosk-KT said:

I think some people are missing the point. im not saying to take away the rank from people that worked hard to get it but reduce the gap to something possible to archive.
The current gp system works exacly like the money pyramid scam, the last people joining are nyerked.

I guess you think that sounded pretty good but that is not true at all unless you really don't know how pyramid scams actually work.  Regardless when you join, the access to GP is the same to every player though very old players had access converting AP to GP.

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Goosk-KT   
2 minutes ago, Gabe-DN said:

Regardless when you join, the access to GP is the same to every player

Maybe you're the one that doesnt know how it works. saying that the gp access is the same to every player is pretty in words and all but that's just a way to hide the fact that its unfair to whoever comes 2nd to the game. there is no competition when you're starting with a 3 year worth of gp disadvantage.

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Although the GP system is not perfect, its a little better than the AP system because it forces the player to be active, to go to sieges, pvp instances, etc... a few years ago when i start playing (3.7) our governor was Hubby (Elyos-SL) and when we had the 4.0 update, he stoped playing, i dont know if it was before or after the update, but the point is we didnt have a governor for a long time, between 6 months and 1 year, maybe a little more, and not only him but also a few great generals, generals and severals army 5 stop playing or stop going to sieges. Even so we had more people than the Asmodians, not having the support of the Xforms was a big disadvantage.

 

 

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Aly-DN   

And here is that word "fair" again.

Say you are a new player and I am a commander. It has taken me 2 years of game play to get to commander. What is fair is that the path I took to get to commander is just as open and just as accessible to you, the new player. It may take you 2 or 3 years, but that's totally fair since it took me that long. What isn't fair is to open a completely new path that gets you to where I am in 6 weeks.

As someone that actually is ranked, to say that there is no competition is complete BS. My competition isn't the person who just stared playing Aion nor is it the governor or commanders on my server. My competition is the people within a couple of ranks of me. I am working to gain ground on the person above me and to stay ahead of the person right below me. 

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Gabe-DN   
42 minutes ago, Goosk-KT said:

Maybe you're the one that doesnt know how it works. saying that the gp access is the same to every player is pretty in words and all but that's just a way to hide the fact that its unfair to whoever comes 2nd to the game. there is no competition when you're starting with a 3 year worth of gp disadvantage.

I really dislike new people and people like you who try to prove their point though it be wrong.  Whats unfair about it?  The fact they haven't played the game and are behind the curve 3 years everyone is suppose to just stop grinding GP for them.  Try being fair to the people who HAVE played for played in that time frame.  Hold up Poco and Mochi, some new guy thinks he should be Governor!!!!. If you want to play the GP game then so be it, play it but don't come in here complaining that your behind the GP because if you haven't noticed, we all are. 

Like I said before, you can be a 5 star pretty easy within a year.  I came back from nothing 14 months ago.

Edited by Gabe-DN

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2 minutes ago, Aly-DN said:

And here is that word "fair" again.

Say you are a new player and I am a commander. It has taken me 2 years of game play to get to commander. What is fair is that the path I took to get to commander is just as open and just as accessible to you, the new player. It may take you 2 or 3 years, but that's totally fair since it took me that long. What isn't fair is to open a completely new path that gets you to where I am in 6 weeks.

As someone that actually is ranked, to say that there is no competition is complete BS. My competition isn't the person who just stared playing Aion nor is it the governor or commanders on my server. My competition is the people within a couple of ranks of me. I am working to gain ground on the person above me and to stay ahead of the person right below me. 

You are completly right, becoming an army 5 or higher is not a right to every player but a privilege to those who work for it, made an efort at gearing their characters and make it stronger. It took me almost two years to become Army 1 with the AP system and when the GP system was introduced i was already Army 3, it took me a loot of efort to become army 5, going to all siege i could go to, dredge, kamar, etc... even i did AP trade ( yes i accept it, i did it, its my AP and i can do what ever i want with it, so deal with it :P) till i become army 5.

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Goosk-KT   
5 minutes ago, Aly-DN said:

It may take you 2 or 3 years, but that's totally fair since it took me that long

That's where you're wrong. 2 years is actualy quite acceptable but did you read my post? it would take over 3 years for a new player to reach the value you have now. if you keep playing there is no way a new player would ever be able to reach the highest ranks, also the calculations i made asume you win most of your instances, a player like this is not exacly "new" to the game.
I get your opinion because you're part of the high ranks but im looking at both sides, if you think you deserve governor you should prove it. not slack and get the minimum gp requirement per week to keep it while anyone else actually trying to get there would take years to reach that point.
I barely ever heard anyone complaining about the league of legends ranking system that resets every year yet alot of people complain about the gp ranking.
 

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