Why all 2h physical weapons are bad dps ?

[Neleth-KT]

Ranger - bow,Chanter - staff,Glad - polearms,Templar - greatsword

None of these weapons can compare to magic 2hand weapons dps.
Even you give powerful 2h weapons or powerful skills or speed capped it doesn't matter
Why ? Because dual wield hits twice and other 2hand weapons ain't as good as to weaving as dual wield.

Fixing chanter,temp,ranger dps is so easy

Chanter - give them dual maces.
Temp - give them dual swords.
Ranger - give them dual crossbows.

Yes I'm bored >_> was trying to weaving with 2h weapons and bored.

[GenericUser143]

Don't really need to fix it, I think. Just gotta have good ping and weave better and use your skills/buffs right. I know I can outdps most people I go with, even magic casters. Or I at least am able to keep up with them. More often than not, I end up tanking.

[The Secret Cow Level]

While dual wielding, the majority of your damage comes from auto attacks (dual attacks), so such classes will usually use only 1 attack skill between auto attacks.

Dual wield classes (Sins, glads) receive much better benefits from +attacks (power CP, +attack manastones) than single weapon classes (chanter, templar, ranger) as these bonuses apply to both equipped weapons (including those socketed in weapons). Thus +attack modifiers on dual wielders are nearly twice as effective as those class who only get to apply +attack to one weapon.

 

Note: For offhand damage auto attacks there is a random chance the damage will be reduced to percentage specified in effect1_reserved6 in dual wield mastery. Tested with level 65 gladiator mostly so far, and limited testing on assassin.

• Non-critical hits:
  • 50% chance of damage will be reduced by effect1_reserved6 once : offhand damage = damage * (effect1_reserved6 / 100)
  • 50% chance of dealing full, non-reduced damage: offhand damage = damage
• Critical hits:
  • 25% chance that damage will be reduced by effect1_reserved6 twice: offhand damage = damage * (effect1_reserved6 / 100) * (effect1_reserved6 / 100)
  • 50% chance that damage will be reduced by effect1_reserved6 once: offhand damage = damage * (effect1_reserved6 / 100)
  • 25% chance of dealing full, non-reduced damage: offhand damage = damage

Where effect1_reserved6

• Level 1: 70 (Non-daeva scouts)
• Level 2: 75 (Gladiators, Rangers)
• Level 3: 80
• Level 4: 85
• Level 5: 90 (Assassins)

Example: High level gladiator offhand auto attacks:

• Non-critical hits:
  • 50% chance of dealing 75% damage
  • 50% chance of dealing 100% damage
• Critical hits:
  • 25% chance of dealing 56.25% damage
  • 50% chance of dealing 75% damage
  • 25% chance of dealing 100% damage

[Neleth-KT]

Hmm you mean DW dmg got reduced in pvp ? but not pve ? please correct me if I understand wrongly moomoo

 

[The Secret Cow Level]

8 hours ago, Neleth-KT said:

Hmm you mean DW dmg got reduced in pvp ? but not pve ? please correct me if I understand wrongly moomoo

 

That's not pvp reduction. The offhand weapon has random chance of having its damage reduced based on dual wield mastery passive skill. So Assassins do more offhand damage than gladiators and rangers. I haven't tested pvp dual wield in detail on whether there are any further pvp damage reduction or not.

My testing was done on a level 65 Gladiator against a Cygnea/Iluma training dummy and a level 71 Plateau Garkion in Iluma.

-------------------------------------------------

And I have to make a correction regarding the double damage reduction on offhand critical hits: The second reduction is applied after physical defense. (the 1st random damage reduction is done before physical defense)

Offhand random damage reduction, applied on all hits and before physical defense:

• 50% chance of damage will be reduced by effect1_reserved6: offhand damage = damage * (effect1_reserved6 / 100)
• 50% chance of dealing full, non-reduced damage: offhand damage = damage

If the attack crits, after deducting enemy physical defense, and applying critical multiplier, the critical damage have another 50% chance of being reduced again at the same percentage.

-------------------------------------------------

And regarding skill damage while dual wielding, how weapon damage are determined in this case is very complex. I am not yet able to figure out a formula yet, but here are my clues (gladiator, training dummy, not flying):

• Increasing mainhand dagger base damage by 112-136 results in 38-75 more skill damage
• Increasing offhand sword base damage by 110-122 results in 88-160 more skill damage
• Increasing green attack (dagger/sword) by 139 results in 158 more min/max skill damage
• Increasing green attack (sword/dagger) by 150 results in 170 more min/max skill damage

Max dagger mastery has +45% damager, max sword mastery has +38% damage

[Neleth-KT]

Increase dagger/sword base dmg = enchant the weapon ? it's interesting tho.

However I must say using attack manastones on non dual wield class is kinda pointless but using power manastones giving hugh benefit because physical def you gained from power manastones (ranger can be tougher than AT because of powers)

Kinda off topic but I would like to know if mobs/bosses attacks/skills are all physical or magical because whenever I using cloth class I took hugh damage from boss skills than other people however if it's physical then why archdaeva version of perfect parry can't parry boss skills ?  I hope you can shard some lights on this

[The Secret Cow Level]

For the weapon base damage tests, I used the following weapons which have no +attack mods:

• Mercenary Dagger: 19-21 dmg
• Suntouched Dagger: 129-143 dmg
• Mercenary Sword: 20-26 dmg
• sunsteeped sword 132-162 dmg

None of the armor pieces are unenchanted.

-------------------------------------

Sorry, another correction, stupid forum doesn't allow editing old posts.

• Increasing mainhand dagger base damage by 110-122 results in 88-160 more skill damage
• Increasing offhand sword base damage by 112-136 results in 38-75 more skill damage
• Increasing green attack (dagger/sword) by 139 results in 158 more min/max skill damage
• Increasing green attack (sword/dagger) by 150 results in 170 more min/max skill damage

[Neleth-KT]

lol that's explained a lot well the main hand is the best then

[Azzmaria-KT]

beacuse all the classes are suposed to be different and they are adapted for different roles. 

If you just want to DPS, create a sorcerer. 
 

Polearms do not have a low DPS, they are supposed to be used against multiple targets. If you have many mobs, the total DPS is higher. Dual is better for a single target. Glads can be offtanks, and the polearm and AoEs are really good for that work. 

Chanters.... That class is a supportive class. Is not a DPS class. Chanters can give a nice bonus DPS to the others. So the chanter DPS is higher than what you see on ARM. But again, if you have a chanter, you are not supposed to be attacking the bosses with all your stigmas in DPS mode. In PvE chanters need to play supportive. 

Greatswords. The reasson for that weapon is to have more damage in PvP. But the shield is really important for the defensive skills and resistance. A good templar can still do a lot of DPS in greatsword. But Is not supposed to be a DPS class. Is the main tank. If you have a templar you need to be tanky. You need to take and keep the agro. You need to survive and must be easy for the healer to keep you alive. You will be the one starting the fights. If you are a templar you are not a natural DPS.

About rangers. I used to know some really good rangers. They made a good use with the traps and CC. Now it seems that every rangers just wants to do pure damage. But ranger is not a pure DPS class. Is a tactical DPS class. Those traps can be really good to nerf the mobs and make them easier to kill. Is a fast class, have some CC like roots, silence.... Is really good hunting magic classes. If you are not going to use all that and will just try to do the same damage than a sorcerer or an assassin, you will have a hard time. 

Aion have different classes. All of them are focused to do different jobs. All of them are weak against some classes and strong agains others. You can make 8 toons on your account. If you feel that something is wrong, maybe you are using the wrong class for you. Try with another one. 

[Ariana-DN]

>traps on bosses LUL maybe coming in 6.0 with sins being able to poison bosses
>physical damage maces in 5.0 LUL

on a serious note though,

glads - have the option to DW so PA dps is pointless to bring up since they only swap to aoe
templars - tanks(dafuq is a tank in 5.0+ LUL i make sorc tank content if i have to) not front dps basically in pve is considered a support class in place of a chanter to me imho >defensive cds of panopy + bg + empyrean prov and tons of cds for self to take pressure off healer for itself helps the group recover.
chanter - press instigation(macro to press every 1 minute) + wow then afk and basically be the most valuable member in terms of dps indirectly, occasionally presses heals and people realize they can heal better than a cleric single target :^) and like templar has some nice cds ontop of this
ranger(do these still exist?) - can pull decent dps even with bow ofc its not sin level but neither are magic classes due to mb cap(should be removed)

the point is why would anyone play a sin or any dps class(sorc/gunner/sm/ranger) without cds if i can just play a chanter/templar have the same dps and basically don't need heals since i have more survival than the boss im trying to kill and better armor?

[Neleth-KT]

Well if you look at a cleric which is purely support class can do DPS more than SW and nearly gunner.
I monitored every class DPS by myself cause I have every class and same gears.I do believed good rangers that u said can pull high DPS could even pull higher if they playing different class.I also believed this is not 3.0 era where tanks just spam taunt with shields and chanters just keep popping buffs every 15 seconds.

The whole point of this is 2h physical weapons need a buff.

[Raefu-DN]

Ranger DPS is fine it's just that most of them can't weave for shit nor know how to manage rotations well. If anything, Ranger needs a buff to their utility skills. We are fairly weak in that regard for PvE. Lower trap CDs, maybe make Skybound a non-stigma, etc. Will likely never happen, but if NC were to give Ranger a "bind" skill for christmas... 

[Ariana-DN]

chanters and templars basically contribute to the group in a different way than raw dps, having a templar/chanter be able to have said utilities and do sin dps would mean no1 plays sin for example

[Rinkusan-KT]

On 12/21/2017 at 11:48 AM, Azzmaria-KT said:

Chanters.... That class is a supportive class. Is not a DPS class. Chanters can give a nice bonus DPS to the others. So the chanter DPS is higher than what you see on ARM. But again, if you have a chanter, you are not supposed to be attacking the bosses with all your stigmas in DPS mode. In PvE chanters need to play supportive. 

At this point, I don't think it's fair to call chanters a support class anymore unless you're willing to call templars a support class. As Ariana implied, we're more of a utility class than a support class.

[Raefu-DN]

1 hour ago, Rinkusan-KT said:

At this point, I don't think it's fair to call chanters a support class anymore unless you're willing to call templars a support class. As Ariana implied, we're more of a utility class than a support class.

In healing/support spec they are most definitely a support class. Utility is more of a crowd control, enemy enfeebling etc. Heal spec chanters provide buffs and back up heals. The amount of damage their mantras add to the rest of the party is huge. If they add 1k DPS to the other 3-4 DPS in the group, that added 3-4k belongs to the chanter. People seem to forget that. Sure you could replace them with another DPS but that defeats the purpose of the back up heals, shields etc.

 

I do agree Chanter needs a DPS buff when in DPS spec. They lose their group vision stigma buff as well as healing burst. They should re-adjust the DPS stigmas to be a bit more potent.

[The Secret Cow Level]

Don't forget that Chanters still have a normal stigma called Word of Inspiration, which is basically a weaker version of Word of Instigation but does not require Elemental Screen and 2 other support stigmas to be equipped.

Clerics nowadays so OP that they absolutely don't need any chanter support, so chanters should only socket Word of Inspiration as their sole support stigma which does not require useless support stigmas to be equipped (as deemed by the group's cleric).

Note that the 15% physical attack bonus from Invincibility Mantra and 20%/25% physical attack bonus for Word of Inspiration/Instigation applies to the the following only:

• Base weapon damage (NOT +attack) + weapon/armor enchant damage + power shards

And magic classes are usually MB capped to their respective instances, so Word of Inspiration/Instigation usually give no damage increase to them.

[Vantheria-DN]

On 12/22/2017 at 4:40 PM, mooMOOMooMoomoo-KT said:

Clerics nowadays so OP that they absolutely don't need any chanter support,

You obviously don't run pugs lmao. There are still many, many clerics who struggle to even heal Adma/Theo.

[Rinkusan-KT]

On 12/22/2017 at 4:01 PM, Raefu-DN said:

In healing/support spec they are most definitely a support class. Utility is more of a crowd control, enemy enfeebling etc. Heal spec chanters provide buffs and back up heals. The amount of damage their mantras add to the rest of the party is huge. If they add 1k DPS to the other 3-4 DPS in the group, that added 3-4k belongs to the chanter. People seem to forget that. Sure you could replace them with another DPS but that defeats the purpose of the back up heals, shields etc.

 

I do agree Chanter needs a DPS buff when in DPS spec. They lose their group vision stigma buff as well as healing burst. They should re-adjust the DPS stigmas to be a bit more potent.

In my opinion, most chanters underestimate the amount of crowd control this class has. As a chanter, if your main focus in group PvP is "buffs and back up heals", then you're not utilizing the ridiculous amount of non-stigma utility we've been given from the Aion 4.8 skill update. 

 

[Rinkusan-KT]

On 12/22/2017 at 4:40 PM, mooMOOMooMoomoo-KT said:

Don't forget that Chanters still have a normal stigma called Word of Inspiration, which is basically a weaker version of Word of Instigation but does not require Elemental Screen and 2 other support stigmas to be equipped.

Clerics nowadays so OP that they absolutely don't need any chanter support, so chanters should only socket Word of Inspiration as their sole support stigma which does not require useless support stigmas to be equipped (as deemed by the group's cleric).

Note that the 15% physical attack bonus from Invincibility Mantra and 20%/25% physical attack bonus for Word of Inspiration/Instigation applies to the the following only:

• Base weapon damage (NOT +attack) + weapon/armor enchant damage + power shards

And magic classes are usually MB capped to their respective instances, so Word of Inspiration/Instigation usually give no damage increase to them.

I disagree with the point that clerics don't need chanter support nowadays. In PvE, while our single-target heals don't make much of a difference, our burst-defensive skill combos that include healing conduit, word of life, and elemental screen can be the difference between surviving a boss's burst-AOE attacks and a complete wipe. In instances like ToE and BoS where the bosses are all AOE dpsers, these stigmas are extremely helpful. Also, keep in mind that the 5% difference in attack between inspiration and instigation is gigantic when you factor in the fact that this buff is being applied to 4 dpsers across the whole group. So the reality is that you're trading 20% attack and a bunch of support stigmas for a small increase in your personal DPS.


 

[Vantheria-DN]

On 12/24/2017 at 5:54 PM, Rinkusan-KT said:

I disagree with the point that clerics don't need chanter support nowadays. In PvE, while our single-target heals don't make much of a difference, our burst-defensive skill combos that include healing conduit, word of life, and elemental screen can be the difference between surviving a boss's burst-AOE attacks and a complete wipe. In instances like ToE and BoS where the bosses are all AOE dpsers, these stigmas are extremely helpful. Also, keep in mind that the 5% difference in attack between inspiration and instigation is gigantic when you factor in the fact that this buff is being applied to 4 dpsers across the whole group. So the reality is that you're trading 20% attack and a bunch of support stigmas for a small increase in your personal DPS.


 

Agreed completely. Also, another problem with Word of Inspiration is that it only lasts 15 seconds. So you're having to constantly spam it, thus taking away from your personal dps. I honestly think Inspiration is a waste unless they change it to last longer than 15 seconds.

Idk, it's all opinions, of course, and everyone's opinion is valid; I just much prefer having Instigation all the time. This is what I bring to the group in end-game instances -- what makes my spot just as valid as someone with higher dps. Instigation, Blessing of Stone, and Healing Burst are pretty much always in my toolkit unless I'm going solo in Crucible Spire.

[Rinkusan-KT]

4 hours ago, Vantheria-DN said:

Agreed completely. Also, another problem with Word of Inspiration is that it only lasts 15 seconds. So you're having to constantly spam it, thus taking away from your personal dps. I honestly think Inspiration is a waste unless they change it to last longer than 15 seconds.

Idk, it's all opinions, of course, and everyone's opinion is valid; I just much prefer having Instigation all the time. This is what I bring to the group in end-game instances -- what makes my spot just as valid as someone with higher dps. Instigation, Blessing of Stone, and Healing Burst are pretty much always in my toolkit unless I'm going solo in Crucible Spire.

Absolutely. The extra time spent refreshing word of inspiration is a huge handicap on your DPS and an unnecessary burden on your mana.