Forcing players to trade through the broker.

[Mirelium-KT]

So yes, it seems if an ancient guilding stone is being sold for under 45k  it gets sold in 3-4 seconds. and it seems it's targeted to specific items. 

My world was sooo beautiful up until this point lol. Just when i thought things can't get any worse LMAO 

[Pylinaer-KT]

13 hours ago, Shirayuki-DN said:

FYI maybe the taxes are affected by something I don't know, 

Influence Ratio mayhaps? I was wondering what the Tax% was for in that.

[Capa-KT]

2 hours ago, Mirelium-KT said:

@Capa-KT why put it at 1 kinah? i trade with friends, never got snipped. I'm pretty sure, that friend won't mind giving 600 or 800 or 1000 kinah for a mat that costs normally idk 100k on broker let's say. Can't say if this happens on Elyos side, because i never put the item at 1 kinah. so that's my bad, i didn't have all the information apparently.   I will test this today on my side to see more. 

I said that the current system it is related to kinah sellers for one simple reason. if items are tradable, and i am a kinah seller, i can for example, trade you items that i farm or whatever, in value of X mount dollars, which you then put on broker. and get your kinah. Yes, i don't give you kinah directly but system could still be abused... Just saying. I am speculating since NC didn't disclosed any reason for most of the changes they made for 6.2, this one included. I was not referring to account wharehouse. But i do see your point regarding, how you might sell kinah. can't confirm, haven't been that much farming in safe zones.

I traded to myself from alts for 1 kinah the first week, testing out if there was a bot snipping every time by brokering one item and waiting 5~10s if it would sell. Ofc after the one time I over-confidently registered 15 stones and they sold immediately, I listed them at 100k+ every subsequent time... And yes, registering for lower than the lowest price, but not under a certain threshold, usually does the trick. But it would still be much better if they banned these on sight; on EU, it took a few weeks to start getting this done, not sure they got rid of them there entirely either.

It's fairly obvious they (the Korean Aion team) did this to (attempt to) fix the bot problem, however if it didn't work on the Korean servers (the amount of bots on Korean servers is pretty crazy from what I've seen last July, on low levels they even spam you with whispers and group invites until you turn group invites off and block them), maybe they should've rethought it a bit when adapting it for NA. It's just sad they couldn't even do something as simple as taking bot reports a tad more seriously to clean up the HQ's four servers, so it's looking really bad for NA. This is just the start if no concrete action is taken, other than nerfing drop rate for everyone. As proven countlessly, that only penalises human players. Hopefully, the new Luna-crafted kinah bundle is a band-aid the bots can't benefit from... yet.

Quote

I will contradict on one point, because i have proof you are wrong on something, I never said it's perfect system  i said and i quote "Yes it's not perfect".  

My bad, I misunderstood.

[Lostsm-DN]

After playing eq and eq2 for over ten years they bought in pay to play, pay to use broker pay to use mail pay to use everything. the game died with in weeks.

Sony then sold the game and they introduced new eq2 called everquestnext which was cancelled by the new company. myself and a million other people bought everquestnext in advance and were promised a refund if it didn't go  head. it didn't and no refund.

I will not do that for aion, it has died and with it people who believed in the game as it was promised. 

to be honest, i thought aion was awesome and even i didnt mind buying a few things to sell on broker, but i also gave away 90% of what i made in aether forging or ppl needed.

thats called "the community" 

NCSoft has on purpose made it difficult for people NOT to buy in the shop rather than making something and on selling.

and as always there is always another game coming that needs dollars to finish their project, problem is! are they going to do the same.

if someone finds the next game cheetehs@gmail.com

miss my friends, you know who u r

[Azzmaria-KT]

well. IMO trade should be reworked. 

I know that all this new thing was suppose dto stop RMT and cheaters, but is not working (and we knew this months ago  ) 

I think we need to add back the normal trade and personal store back. The items that can be brokered should be tradeable. RMT took profit of that, but they can still do their job with the broker. Cheaters with scrips are taking advantage from our needs to help friends or to move mats inside our accounts. Maybe we need some controls or restrictions, but they could be different. Like lvl restrictions or how many items for each category we can trade each week (or something like that to avoid bots to move millions of items at once). Maybe we can even have the trade option unlocked inside some areas were bots can not go easily (like last rooms in some instances). 

I like that we are going to get some extra kinah from luna crafts now, But I still thing we will need some more kinah. 

And I really think we need lower fees on broker now. And as long that we can not trade brokerable items to our toons, maybe more slots to sell in broker. 

[DevilNest-KT]

On 13/11/2018 at 10:38 PM, Kailor-DN said:

Math, already 14.14% to get the item on the broker, then add 13.4% TAX on sale, that's 27.54% LOSS, round to 30% loss so that 18000000 thing I wanted to sell would actually have to sell for 23400000 for me to net 18000000 out of it and that isn't happening. 

How can you be so damn stubborn and blind !!

this is pretty simple 2.3% tax to list and item and 11.7% only if you sell the item thats it, 14% total

look what you made me do so maybe i can finally stop you from spreading false information

this is reaching a comical point already 

 

 

[Edmond-KT]

On 11/14/2018 at 5:35 AM, Capa-KT said:

It's fairly obvious they (the Korean Aion team) did this to (attempt to) fix the bot problem

Actually, i think they did it to reduce inflation.

[Mirelium-KT]

@DevilNest-KT Don't bother man.  You're wasting your breath... too many have tried to explain this... but no luck so far.

[Kailor-DN]

15879024 is 88.2% of the actual price, add another 7% loss due to taxes because the broker does NOT add taxes to the price for another 1260000. 15879024 -1260000 - 424188 = 14194836. That's 78.8% of the asking price, virtually a 30% LOSS. If I sold that my net would only be 14194836. Now if net were 16200000 no problem, that's an honest 10% broker charge but it isn't, it's over 2 MILLION less than it should be, almost 20% more loss that it should be. If my broker charged like that, I'd fire his keister in a heartbeat, 10% is reasonable, beyond that is a rip off artist at work.

[DevilNest-KT]

1 minute ago, Kailor-DN said:

15879024 is 88.2% of the actual price, add another 7% loss due to taxes because the broker does NOT add taxes to the price for another 1260000. 15879024 -1260000 - 424188 = 14194836. That's 78.8% of the asking price, virtually a 30% LOSS. If I sold that my net would only be 14194836. Now if net were 16200000 no problem, that's an honest 10% broker charge but it isn't, it's over 2 MILLION less than it should be, almost 20% more loss that it should be. If my broker charged like that, I'd fire his keister in a heartbeat, 10% is reasonable, beyond that is a rip off artist at work.

dude stop doing maths please you are not good at it just please see the picture i posted is quite simple just click zoom and read it. 

 

[Mirelium-KT]

14 minutes ago, Kailor-DN said:

15879024 is 88.2% of the actual price, add another 7% loss due to taxes because the broker does NOT add taxes to the price for another 1260000. 15879024 -1260000 - 424188 = 14194836. That's 78.8% of the asking price, virtually a 30% LOSS. If I sold that my net would only be 14194836. Now if net were 16200000 no problem, that's an honest 10% broker charge but it isn't, it's over 2 MILLION less than it should be, almost 20% more loss that it should be. If my broker charged like that, I'd fire his keister in a heartbeat, 10% is reasonable, beyond that is a rip off artist at work.

Dude you can't add tax over tax like that. that's not how economy goes. your item is 18kk, to register it on the broker you pay a registration fee, your case 424,188. this money will be deducted from you account balance. Then you have the transaction fee that is 2,120,976. Don't sum them up. And are you blind?

WTF you didn't do math in high school? "15879024 -1260000 - 424188 = 14194836" HUH? nonono dude you have major issues. look, this is math: 18,000,000-2,120,976=15,879,024.

Now to get your net from 15,879,024 you deduct the listing fee 15,879,024 - 424,188=15,454,836 

Now, my advice, Go back to school! 

[Shirayuki-DN]

Plays too much games. Doesn't go to school to study math. Feelsbadman.

[Kailor-DN]

You have to take the sale price, then subtract fees and taxes since the broker doesn't add taxes to the price, the seller is paying the tax. 15+ mil is whats left after the selling fee of 2+ mil but, you need to subtract the listing fee and tax from that, yes you pay listing up front and the rest after the sale but, you still pay it. Like buying property, you have to pay the price, plus escrow and, you have to add in ALL of the property taxes you estimate you will pay for however many years you live there to get the real cost of the property. You have to add taxes when you do a grocery budget, can't go by shelf prices alone. The broker SHOULD add taxes to the listing price but it doesn't. that 18 mil typed in should be 19260000 to the buyer to cover 7% tax but it isn't so, the seller is paying the tax.

[Shirayuki-DN]

Yea yea continue running out of kinah instead of posting here please.

[Edmond-KT]

8 hours ago, Kailor-DN said:

15879024 is 88.2% of the actual price, add another 7% loss due to taxes because the broker does NOT add taxes to the price for another 1260000. 15879024 -1260000 - 424188 = 14194836. That's 78.8% of the asking price, virtually a 30% LOSS. If I sold that my net would only be 14194836. Now if net were 16200000 no problem, that's an honest 10% broker charge but it isn't, it's over 2 MILLION less than it should be, almost 20% more loss that it should be. If my broker charged like that, I'd fire his keister in a heartbeat, 10% is reasonable, beyond that is a rip off artist at work.

I believe he thinks the tax is charged when you put the item on the broker AND when you collect the money; do me a favor plz dude:

1. Check your total kinah. Write it down as 'Ki'
2. Go to the broker and put one Legendary Guiding Stone for sale for 100 kinah
3. Wait a couple seconds for the sniping bots to buy it and collect the money
4. Check your total kinah. Write it down as 'Kf'

The tax you paid is 100 - (Kf - Ki) [%]

Problem is, this guy thinks that window shows the money that is taxed "in that moment" (when putting the item on the broker), so, when he collects the money, he thinks he is taxed again. @Kailor-DN, that window shows the TOTAL money you are paying IF your item is sold, if your item is not sold, you just paid the register fee.

[Delessa-DN]

This doesn't stop kinah sellers, they're fully able to absorb the fee anyways.

It's still $25 for a billion as it was awhile ago; nothing has changed.

 

This only punishes legit players as all so called "anti RMT' measures do. Besides NC already sells kinah to the tune of $3 per 10 million - kinah boxes with box coins.

[Aly-DN]

It doesn't punish anyone and I hate the word "forced" tossed around so liberally when we talk about things in a -game-. "PvP was forced on me!" "I am being forced to pay real money!" "I am forced to use the broker if I want to sell things!" Goodness! Stop painting yourselves as victims of some horrible abuse.

It's a -game-. The game designers/developers have put certain systems into the game. We can complain about them and state why we don't like them without making it seem like we are small children having our lunch money stolen by the big bad bullies in Korea. We are totally in control of this relationship.

[Vantheria-DN]

52 minutes ago, Aly-DN said:

We are totally in control of this relationship.

Actually, I don't think many people are, and that's the problem. They don't have enough self-restraint to NOT do things that are detrimental to their own financial stability. That's not anyone's fault but their own, but yeah.

[Edmond-KT]

@Aly-DN

If i'm standing on the map and another player can come and attack me, without me having any capacity of choosing if i wanna be attacked or not, that is 'being forced'. Currently, 99.99% of the pve game content is done in places or across places where i can be forced to pvp.

I believe that you are not aware that the concept of an RPG is EXACTLY the opposite, it's a game where you can choose what to do and you are not forced to follow a path. If i'd have wanted to play a game where i can do one thing and one thing only, i would be playing fortnite, or counter-strike, or any other shooter.

I never engage other people, i NEVER pvp, i don't even get involved when i see guys from my side fighting. This morning (well, it happens every day btw..), i was farming some stones and i've got killed by asmos around 7 times. The moment these nyerkers come into my screen, they go straight to attack me, i could be killing mob, chatting with another player, just sitting, or afk, and the ONLY thing they do is attack, i don't know if they are in some degree mentally retarded, or half the Asmo contingent are bots scripted to attack ANY Elyos in sight, but is really really annoying that if you don't wanna participate in pvp, you can't even complete your quests or farrm some cash in peace without having them pestering around ALL DAY. That is being forced, i don't wanna participate in pvp, but my quests, and the only mob that gives me any drop are in a place where i can be forced to pvp and to be killed.

[Kailor-DN]

2 hours ago, Edmond-KT said:

I believe he thinks the tax is charged when you put the item on the broker AND when you collect the money; do me a favor plz dude:

1. Check your total kinah. Write it down as 'Ki'
2. Go to the broker and put one Legendary Guiding Stone for sale for 100 kinah
3. Wait a couple seconds for the sniping bots to buy it and collect the money
4. Check your total kinah. Write it down as 'Kf'

The tax you paid is 100 - (Kf - Ki) [%]

Problem is, this guy thinks that window shows the money that is taxed "in that moment" (when putting the item on the broker), so, when he collects the money, he thinks he is taxed again. @Kailor-DN, that window shows the TOTAL money you are paying IF your item is sold, if your item is not sold, you just paid the register fee.

No, taxed at sale time, wen someone buys it but the broker is NOT adding taxes to the listed price so, that means the seller is paying the taxes. Go buy something at the store, the price tag is NOT what you pay because the cash register at the store will add taxes and you pay them but, the broker does NOT do that. Someone buying that item would pay 18000000 not the 19260000 that would cover the 7% tax. Therefore seller is paying the tax so, that has to come out of the profit as well as the TWO fees the broker charges, one at listing and a bigger one at sale.

[Vantheria-DN]

4 minutes ago, Kailor-DN said:

No, taxed at sale time, wen someone buys it but the broker is NOT adding taxes to the listed price so, that means the seller is paying the taxes. Go buy something at the store, the price tag is NOT what you pay because the cash register at the store will add taxes and you pay them but, the broker does NOT do that. Someone buying that item would pay 18000000 not the 19260000 that would cover the 7% tax. Therefore seller is paying the tax so, that has to come out of the profit as well as the TWO fees the broker charges, one at listing and a bigger one at sale.

..... ......................

Please please please just go read @DevilNest-KT's screencaps. You can actually read how much he's charged in his chat logs.

[Shirayuki-DN]

I LOLed when I read his sentence. TOO REAL BRUH TOO REAL. R U PLAYING IN VR OR SUMTHING!?

[Aly-DN]

24 minutes ago, Edmond-KT said:

@Aly-DN

If i'm standing on the map and another player can come and attack me, without me having any capacity of choosing if i wanna be attacked or not, that is 'being forced'. Currently, 99.99% of the pve game content is done in places or across places where i can be forced to pvp.

I believe that you are not aware that the concept of an RPG is EXACTLY the opposite, it's a game where you can choose what to do and you are not forced to follow a path. If i'd have wanted to play a game where i can do one thing and one thing only, i would be playing fortnite, or counter-strike, or any other shooter.

I never engage other people, i NEVER pvp, i don't even get involved when i see guys from my side fighting. This morning (well, it happens every day btw..), i was farming some stones and i've got killed by asmos around 7 times. The moment these nyerkers come into my screen, they go straight to attack me, i could be killing mob, chatting with another player, just sitting, or afk, and the ONLY thing they do is attack, i don't know if they are in some degree mentally retarded, or half the Asmo contingent are bots scripted to attack ANY Elyos in sight, but is really really annoying that if you don't wanna participate in pvp, you can't even complete your quests or farrm some cash in peace without having them pestering around ALL DAY. That is being forced, i don't wanna participate in pvp, but my quests, and the only mob that gives me any drop are in a place where i can be forced to pvp and to be killed.

Alright. So let's have a reasonable discussion.

Aion is indeed an MMORPG. Here is a decent definition that I found of MMORPG: (abbreviation) massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player,taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of otherplayers. There isn't anything in there (or any definition I found) about allowing people to do whatever they want, but that's pretty much implied with any game. You can play the game in any fashion you like within the scope and rules of the game. But Aion is not only an MMORPG but has always been advertised as a game that "combines PvP and PvE(a concept the developers call PvPvE) in a fantasy game environment." Combines. The game is designed to intertwine both gaming styles. To do this the devs places PvE quests and PvE dungeon entrances in open world while adding PvP kill quests in those same areas to encourage the style of game play that they advertised the game to be. By game design we are given reasons to be out and about in open world and your enemy is given reasons to go out there and kill you (or you them).

It really isn't something personal that you were getting killed this morning and those that killed you weren't "mentally retarded" and they weren't bots. They were players completing a quest. In this case, you are their quest item. 

You've heard "red=dead" right? That's the mindset that anything red on your map will be attacked. I am sure you have also seen "red" players run right by you without attacking. Both of those are perfectly legit play styles, though most people are probably a combination of the two.

You aren't being forced to PvP. You chose to walk into a PvP area and another player killed you in order to complete their quest or because they thought you were going to attack them if they didn't or just because they could and it is allowed. You chose that and you knew it could happen. Your choices led to your character having his farming disturbed. 

[Edmond-KT]

3 minutes ago, Aly-DN said:

Alright. So let's have a reasonable discussion.

Aion is indeed an MMORPG. Here is a decent definition that I found of MMORPG: (abbreviation) massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player,taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of otherplayers. There isn't anything in there (or any definition I found) about allowing people to do whatever they want, but that's pretty much implied with any game. You can play the game in any fashion you like within the scope and rules of the game. But Aion is not only an MMORPG but has always been advertised as a game that "combines PvP and PvE(a concept the developers call PvPvE) in a fantasy game environment." Combines. The game is designed to intertwine both gaming styles. To do this the devs places PvE quests and PvE dungeon entrances in open world while adding PvP kill quests in those same areas to encourage the style of game play that they advertised the game to be. By game design we are given reasons to be out and about in open world and your enemy is given reasons to go out there and kill you (or you them).

It really isn't something personal that you were getting killed this morning and those that killed you weren't "mentally retarded" and they weren't bots. They were players completing a quest. In this case, you are their quest item. 

You've heard "red=dead" right? That's the mindset that anything red on your map will be attacked. I am sure you have also seen "red" players run right by you without attacking. Both of those are perfectly legit play styles, though most people are probably a combination of the two.

You aren't being forced to PvP. You chose to walk into a PvP area and another player killed you in order to complete their quest or because they thought you were going to attack them if they didn't or just because they could and it is allowed. You chose that and you knew it could happen. Your choices led to your character having his farming disturbed. 

"You aren't being forced to PvP. You chose to walk into a PvP area"
I would have accepted that argument in v5, with, about 10 maps, around ~1000 quests, ~100 instances, there you could effectively "do" things not in a pvp area.

Now we have... 4 maps? Where 3 of them have NO quests and NO MOB gives drop. The ONLY quests and the ONLY mobs that drop items for a lvl 80 player (feature that you can't avoid since there is no way to stop the exp. gaining) are in a pvp area, so if i'm not in a pvp area, i literally the only thing i can do is just stand being afk. So, that "don't being forced" is basically the absurd of "Be in a pvp area or don't play, but nobody is forcing you".

[Aly-DN]

Just now, Edmond-KT said:

"You aren't being forced to PvP. You chose to walk into a PvP area"
I would have accepted that argument in v5, with, about 10 maps, around ~1000 quests, ~100 instances, there you could effectively "do" things not in a pvp area.

Now we have... 4 maps? Where 3 of them have NO quests and NO MOB gives drop. The ONLY quests and the ONLY mobs that drop items for a lvl 80 player (feature that you can't avoid since there is no way to stop the exp. gaining) are in a pvp area, so if i'm not in a pvp area, i literally the only thing i can do is just stand being afk. So, that "don't being forced" is basically the absurd of "Be in a pvp area or don't play, but nobody is forcing you".

Right.

And I believe I know why the number of maps was reduced. The devs were seeing too many people walking around on empty maps that were supposed to be PvEvP maps. I remember trying to complete my PvP daily quests on some maps and not being able to find anyone there. Not a single enemy. That's like having an important quest with great rewards and yet the mob isn't placed on the map. You would be up in arms over that, right? Having -one- endgame map makes everyone happy and makes it possible to complete every quest. 

Here is the thing. You chose to play a game that advertises itself as PvPvE. You can admit you weren't forced and you weren't fooled or tricked, right? When you saw the map of Lakrum, you noticed how the map was split? Two sides with a base for each race at the South and a clearly defined middle ground in between. I don't think it takes a genius to see that there are "safer" areas and areas where more likely than not you will see PvP, though the whole map is marked for PvP. You can reduce the chances that PvP will happen by staying in the safer areas, but you are never going to be able to reduce that chance to 0. Because that's the -game-.

So yeah. Be in a PvP area at end-game or don't play. No one is forcing you. It's the game design. If the design doesn't work for you, then you chose the wrong game.