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Camalus-KT

Fort Guard killed before gates during siege

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@Loki @Kibbelz

We have a situation in Katalam server. When we have siege time.. while we are taking down the gate somehow some plp are inside the gates killing guards.

We had the same situation before on demaha fort where some plp were leaving kisks inside fort. I dont know how this plp are doing this but its not fair with plp that are playing within the rules.

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Loki   
14 hours ago, Camalus-KT said:

@Loki @Kibbelz

We have a situation in Katalam server. When we have siege time.. while we are taking down the gate somehow some plp are inside the gates killing guards.

We had the same situation before on demaha fort where some plp were leaving kisks inside fort. I dont know how this plp are doing this but its not fair with plp that are playing within the rules.

Which fortress is this happening at?

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If you are talking about Inggison and Gelkmaros the kisk is placed on a mountain next to the fortress.
If, for example, you are asmodian: you take contributions from Iniggson's 2 fortresses, then you kill yourself and go back to the mountain kisk and jump into the fortress.
This was never a bug. It is part of the relief of the map, a mountain that touches the fortress wall

 

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1 hour ago, Loki said:

Which fortress is this happening at?

Altar of Avarice in Inggison. it has been like 2 weeks or more like this.. When we kill gate and go inside.. Fort inside is clean, no guards.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2020 at 11:55 AM, Loki said:

Which fortress is this happening at?

This has been around since 2.0, it's a terrain exploit that allows players to climb past the natural glide barrier present in the fort to prevent people from just jumping in from above. It happens at north Gelk fort, sometimes south fort as well (although unsure if glide hacks are employed for this one). Likewise for Ing forts, both north and south have exploits where one can simply glide into the fort past the barrier.

 

As only a select group of players knows and actively uses this exploit, they usually are the ones who always rank top 100 for transforms due to having this advantage. Generally, there are a select group of players who will defend this exploit by saying "NC would have fixed it already" making the gross assumption this is an intended feature that is open to all (obviously it is not as it requires weird running/jumping into what visually are vertical walls). But there are such people in every game who abuse glitches to obtain an unfair advantage then try to sell them off as "it's part of the game". It is no mistake that the same group of players consistently ranks for top 100 while other players never get there. Effectively, the tolerance of such glitches makes the GP reset pointless as it's always the same players ranking regardless of the reset.

 

A solution you can look into is to spawn guard towers (think Katalam towers that deal 2m damage per shot to entire groups) on top of the cliffs on the forts so that players attempting to traverse them are immediately killed and unable to exploit this. These towers would not affect normal game play as players playing the game without exploiting glitches would not venture into such areas anyways. Eliminating this exploit would make GP gain again an even playing field and certain players would not have a +1000 advantage per siege without having to risk PVP like they normally would. The first siege after reset is most crucial as no one has transforms yet and the playing field is 100% balanced. By being able to "glide" into forts to farm easy AP from the mobs, one can easily max out the GP gained per fort over someone who would opt to PVP (high chance of getting nothing at all due to being massively outnumbered on home turf for the other faction).

 

Another workaround would be to delete all the mobs aside from the primary gates/deity as the HP on those 3 targets makes it impossible to destroy without a significant number of players in any reasonable amount of time.

Edited by Delessa-DN

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This is not a glitch or exploit. As people have stated, it's simply people reaching a very high point on the map and gliding...

What most people forget is that Gelk/Ing are recycled maps from 2.xx days and back then, maps were much more 'liberal'. Compared to 6.0 til now, we've had maps with invisible walls everywhere which I recall a lot of people complaining about.

I get the point of the person making the post. But what I would say is that it really doesn't affect you if you're helping to kill the Fortress Deity. Because you will still get the same relative contribution as your faction members, even without any guards to kill. The only people 'benefiting' are those from the opposite faction which you don't compete against in terms of abys rankings anyway.

In my opinion, you should learn to do the same thing. There's literally nothing stopping you except yourself. 

The alternative is that we add to the already burdened workload of the devs for something completely unnecessary, which will only prolong the more important changes, as previously discussed in Kibblez's Community Feedback post.

And before you say 'Oh you're just one of the top 100 players who are trying to defend your actions'.
Well, no. I live in Australia and Sieges currently occur at 2pm here which I mostly miss due to work.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bintang-KT said:

This is not a glitch or exploit. As people have stated, it's simply people reaching a very high point on the map and gliding...
 

Bintang has a point here. Though at first glance this may appear to be an exploit, it wouldn't be the first time one could legally gain entry into a fort during siege via natural gliding or some other legitimate means- Lakrum is an example. By design Lakrum allowed you to naturally glide into the fort via jumping out of the highest point of the windstream and also by using the hookshot/grappling hook item that dropped from specially spawned mobs 1hr prior to the fort going live- both required skill and luck as you needed at least 1 decent updraft from the windstream or you needed to promptly get the kill and loot right on the hookshot mobs.

 

If they wanted to restrict access into the fort before taking down the gates then the devs would've just deployed the same method they've used at other forts like Divine by putting up invisible barriers right outside the walls or insta-death aether shields (this would def indicate that entry before taking down gates are illegal). The only other exploit that required patching was with kisks or logging out before siege and back in after start time which takes away the skill/luck factor of parkour/spelunking.

Edited by Malachyte-KT

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Malachyte-KT said:

Bintang has a point here. Though at first glance this may appear to be an exploit, it wouldn't be the first time one could legally gain entry into a fort during siege via natural gliding or some other legitimate means- Lakrum is an example. By design Lakrum allowed you to naturally glide into the fort via jumping out of the highest point of the windstream and also by using the hookshot/grappling hook item that dropped from specially spawned mobs 1hr prior to the fort going live- both required skill and luck as you needed at least 1 decent updraft from the windstream or you needed to promptly get the kill and loot right on the hookshot mobs.

 

If they wanted to restrict access into the fort before taking down the gates then the devs would've just deployed the same method they've used at other forts like Divine by putting up invisible barriers right outside the walls or insta-death aether shields (this would def indicate that entry before taking down gates are illegal). The only other exploit that required patching was with kisks or logging out before siege and back in after start time which takes away the skill/luck factor of parkour/spelunking.

It is an exploit as it requires glitching on invisible terrain that is otherwise a vertical cliff. Sufficed to say, these exploits were found by people using third party programs that showed terrain pathing to begin with, they were not found by "luck". The "how to" videos are merely people following the directions. Simply because the terrain isn't flat as it should have been when they made it and has pixels you can jump onto does not make this "normal" behavior that players who aren't looking for glitches will never find.

You raise Lakrum fort, this is different as there is no shield that prevents glide unlike Gelk/Ing forts where there is a barrier that stops all gliding and makes you immediately fall with flight CD time on ensuring a death if you try penetrating it from up high. The glitch involves terrain hopping through the barrier then being free to glide once past the barrier. Divine's system would not prevent this as gliding isn't flight, a no flight zone would not work. The only way this behavior can be stopped is either the glitched terrain is fixed (unlikely as developers would have to find exactly where these pixels are on a massive map of pixels) or, as suggested, guard towers are spawned up on the cliffs that would 1 shot players trying to traverse them, or, all guard mobs are removed from forts during siege and only the gates/deity are kept. An instant death shield is possible but would require developer work which is not something NC West can fix. Spawning guards though, is something they can do and thus our suggestion.

Seems some also think "but it's your faction why would you care?" Everyone should care that the playing field is level as the point of the GP resets are to allow for more than the same old players getting top 100 and accessing transforms. When it's the same players reset after reset, that's when you know the system isn't working as intended.

Trying to say there's skill to exploiting is somewhat questionable, are you trying to normalize what is behavior that lands certain unscrupulous players an unfair advantage by not only condoning but by praising them? Hard pass there mate.

Edited by Delessa-DN

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13 hours ago, Delessa-DN said:

When it's the same players reset after reset, that's when you know the system isn't working as intended.

Disclaimer: I don't go to siege 90% of the time because of how late it is, and when I did, I never went to the opposite faction's forts. I'm not even 5-star currently. So I'm not benefiting from this glitch or whatever.

It's the same players reset after reset because those are the most active players. Those are the players who take this game more seriously and actually care about maintaining a high rank. Those of us who don't give a shit just don't go when we don't want to go. Those who care WILL go even when they don't want to. So it's not that the "system isn't working as intended"; it's actually that there are only a few players who care to be top 30 ranks. (You don't need to go to the opposite faction's forts to be top 100, only top 30 -- and even then, not all the time for top 30.)

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22 hours ago, Delessa-DN said:

It is an exploit as it requires glitching on invisible terrain that is otherwise a vertical cliff. Sufficed to say, these exploits were found by people using third party programs that showed terrain pathing to begin with, they were not found by "luck". The "how to" videos are merely people following the directions. Simply because the terrain isn't flat as it should have been when they made it and has pixels you can jump onto does not make this "normal" behavior that players who aren't looking for glitches will never find.

You raise Lakrum fort, this is different as there is no shield that prevents glide unlike Gelk/Ing forts where there is a barrier that stops all gliding and makes you immediately fall with flight CD time on ensuring a death if you try penetrating it from up high. The glitch involves terrain hopping through the barrier then being free to glide once past the barrier. Divine's system would not prevent this as gliding isn't flight, a no flight zone would not work. The only way this behavior can be stopped is either the glitched terrain is fixed (unlikely as developers would have to find exactly where these pixels are on a massive map of pixels) or, as suggested, guard towers are spawned up on the cliffs that would 1 shot players trying to traverse them, or, all guard mobs are removed from forts during siege and only the gates/deity are kept. An instant death shield is possible but would require developer work which is not something NC West can fix. Spawning guards though, is something they can do and thus our suggestion.

Seems some also think "but it's your faction why would you care?" Everyone should care that the playing field is level as the point of the GP resets are to allow for more than the same old players getting top 100 and accessing transforms. When it's the same players reset after reset, that's when you know the system isn't working as intended.

Trying to say there's skill to exploiting is somewhat questionable, are you trying to normalize what is behavior that lands certain unscrupulous players an unfair advantage by not only condoning but by praising them? Hard pass there mate.

If what you are saying is true then it is both a glitch and an exploit, however, my post was based off of all the other posts indicating that people are just naturally gliding in from a higher terrain that is legally accessible in which case it's just taking advantage of game mechanics and therefore legitimate until an official statement by NCSoft indicating otherwise. A simple solution is to just have a GM comment on the forums or in-game that entering specified forts prior to destroying gates is illegal and if a player is caught doing it they will receive some sort of warning/suspension/ban or whatever they deem appropriate for the offense.

I am not saying there is skill in exploiting nor trying to normalize that kind of behavior, you inferred that on your own. All of my comment was based on the use of legitimate flight and parkour mechanics. Hard pass indeed...mate.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2020 at 4:29 PM, Malachyte-KT said:

If what you are saying is true then it is both a glitch and an exploit, however, my post was based off of all the other posts indicating that people are just naturally gliding in from a higher terrain that is legally accessible in which case it's just taking advantage of game mechanics and therefore legitimate until an official statement by NCSoft indicating otherwise. A simple solution is to just have a GM comment on the forums or in-game that entering specified forts prior to destroying gates is illegal and if a player is caught doing it they will receive some sort of warning/suspension/ban or whatever they deem appropriate for the offense.

I am not saying there is skill in exploiting nor trying to normalize that kind of behavior, you inferred that on your own. All of my comment was based on the use of legitimate flight and parkour mechanics. Hard pass indeed...mate.

No, they are definitely not "simply gliding in", this has long been a glitch that NC never bothered fixing - let's be frank, seems like the Koreans play far more fair than us North Americans do.

That's just it, it "is" legally accessible due to bugs in terrain pathing, for example, on what is a vertical mountain face, a normal player might be "this is impassable", however, this terrain actually has hidden steps that you can jump up. How you find these steps? Third party programs that display terrain models exist. Are these paths intended? Pretty sure they would not be, just that it's a side effect of having multiple polygons while creating a terrain map. This is a back and forth argument where some using these glitches claim "it's legit" where as the reasonable player would conclude it's not. After all, normal players do not run at walls seeing if they can teleport through because "reasons". The act of finding these "bugs" already implies the player is seeking to exploit game errors for his/her own advantage.

 

NC used to do this, they had a policy that handed out bans for gliding into forts to train dredge commanders back in 2.0-2.5. This was a thing, if you wanted to make the other faction lose a fort you could pass the glide barrier using this glitch, glide in and train multiple dredge commanders on the deity to flip the fort balaur - they used to punish for this before the playerbase dropped so much they stopped banning completely.

 

Parkour mechanics don't exist - these are glitches. Your character can jump that high, can glide that far and can fly in certain areas only. Your comment of parkour implies traversing terrain that was never intended to be traversed which itself is exploiting something not intended. If the developers had intended forts be raided before gates could be broken they'd add flight so you can fly over the gates - like they did in abyss sieges, you could fly into every fort by attacking the shield generator from above without destroying a single gate. Not only did they not do this, they made each gate vulnerable conditional on the destruction of the first and the deity as well. Gate 1 vulnerable, gate 2 and deity invulnerable, gate 2 vulnerable, deity invulnerable. This is blatantly obvious the developers intending players to have to progress in a linear manner through the fort in order to capture/obtain rewards for it. Something contravened by people using terrain glitches to reach areas that should not be accessible before this progression is met.

On 8/7/2020 at 7:06 AM, Vantheria-DN said:

Disclaimer: I don't go to siege 90% of the time because of how late it is, and when I did, I never went to the opposite faction's forts. I'm not even 5-star currently. So I'm not benefiting from this glitch or whatever.

It's the same players reset after reset because those are the most active players. Those are the players who take this game more seriously and actually care about maintaining a high rank. Those of us who don't give a shit just don't go when we don't want to go. Those who care WILL go even when they don't want to. So it's not that the "system isn't working as intended"; it's actually that there are only a few players who care to be top 30 ranks. (You don't need to go to the opposite faction's forts to be top 100, only top 30 -- and even then, not all the time for top 30.)


Once you have a head start it's easy to hold it because next siege you have a transform and can now PVP. You're also able to glitch into forts if you wish to avoid PVP and still get max rewards. Your "competition" is limited to normal PVP outnumbered 10:1 without the benefit of a transform to enhance their chances of survival. Fort PVP is not like bullying leveling players in Lakrum as equally geared players are present, combined with the outnumbering, non transforms generally survive for seconds at best. You will notice it's always the same players gliding into forts, these players also appear on top 100 without exception after the first few sieges and immediately get access to transforms. Once they do, they stop gliding into forts because now PVP is easier as there are some on the other faction who will use the same exploit to kill their SM alts who summon.

Of course, that SM summon still exists is a relic of the past, this skill doesn't even need to be in the game.

Edited by Delessa-DN

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On 8/6/2020 at 2:15 AM, Bintang-KT said:

This is not a glitch or exploit. As people have stated, it's simply people reaching a very high point on the map and gliding...

What most people forget is that Gelk/Ing are recycled maps from 2.xx days and back then, maps were much more 'liberal'. Compared to 6.0 til now, we've had maps with invisible walls everywhere which I recall a lot of people complaining about.

I get the point of the person making the post. But what I would say is that it really doesn't affect you if you're helping to kill the Fortress Deity. Because you will still get the same relative contribution as your faction members, even without any guards to kill. The only people 'benefiting' are those from the opposite faction which you don't compete against in terms of abys rankings anyway.

In my opinion, you should learn to do the same thing. There's literally nothing stopping you except yourself. 

The alternative is that we add to the already burdened workload of the devs for something completely unnecessary, which will only prolong the more important changes, as previously discussed in Kibblez's Community Feedback post.

And before you say 'Oh you're just one of the top 100 players who are trying to defend your actions'.
Well, no. I live in Australia and Sieges currently occur at 2pm here which I mostly miss due to work.

I remember doing the Ing mountain climb for Scales and it took HOURS.  When we finally got SMs up there it was so nice lol

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On 8/3/2020 at 2:55 PM, Loki said:

Which fortress is this happening at?

Not sure you've ever gone through an Elyos Renown rift, but one of them puts you above the Gelk North fort in a spot where you can just glide into the fort.  Kind of game breaking honestly ;) @Loki

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