Skill changes for the upcoming update - 7.5 part 2 vs. 7.5 part 1

[buknoy-DN]

37 minutes ago, Ryzin-DN said:

They do have diminishing returns as well as resistance after the 3rd sleep. These are the type of people who are crying that sorcs are OP.....

Yeah. If you can survive that long then hats off to you. Most people cant live to tell the tale after 2 rotations if not 1.

[Calista-DN]

Just now, buknoy-DN said:

Yeah. If you can survive that long then hats off to you. Most people cant live to tell the tale after 2 rotations if not 1.

While the sorc is casting sleep, let me introduce you to my friend the SM.

[buknoy-DN]

any type of cc should be "remove shockable". CLASS BALANCED.

[Ryzin-DN]

4 minutes ago, buknoy-DN said:

any type of cc should be "remove shockable". CLASS BALANCED.

I agree, all forms of cc like, roots, stuns, KB's, KD's etc should also come with diminishing returns and resistance after the 3rd one as well. 

[buknoy-DN]

1 minute ago, Ryzin-DN said:

I agree, all forms of cc like, roots, stuns, KB's, KD's etc should also come with diminishing returns and resistance after the 3rd one as well. 

I am all for it.

[Arhangelos]

19 minutes ago, buknoy-DN said:

any type of cc should be "remove shockable". CLASS BALANCED.

Sleep is removable once you get 1 hit, the only cc that does that, every other true CC (stuns, knockdowns) are removable as long as you have remove shock ready but you only have one remove shock while most classes have multiple stuns, lockdowns etc.

If you meant fear then I agree, it would simply turn into another form of sleep if it is removable. Thankfully they increase the defense you get when in fear. Still OP as an absolute debuff that renders you powerless.

[Ele-DN]

20 minutes ago, Calista-DN said:

You can't dispel? You don't have better shields than a sorc in DPS spec? uh, yes you do.  Not to mention way more skills that don't have long cast times  nor are they on long CDs.

So don't compare SW 9% cast speed vs sorc 20% cast times- there's a good reason for that - you can't compare  given the skills and the 2 classes don't have the same mobility, although if both have ultimate transforms then it would help for the sorc.

 

Not necessarily. Do you even know which build gives instant sleep? and it isn't always useful. Yes a sorc has a chance to kill a SW but it's by no means a given, a SW has plenty of tools to do the job as well.

Idk what build sorcs use but instance sleep chained to another sleep is annoying if its caught offguard.

Cast speed can be compared, until it can get March/kaisinel. Sorcs mainy need casting speed as the attack based ccs are close to instance. Sws are all long chains. when sws first came out till now, and even now its debatable, its priority was att speed over cast. Attack speed harp combine, gloves, scrolls, you name it. And that is to get out long delayed cc skills out quick. after 4.8, when vision stigmas came out, sws skill rotation changed a bit for pvp. To kill anything, it needs to though the same process as a sorc. Sleep,+/bury cc, burst. And with that, casting 4-5 + 3 sec burst skills with a hybrid att/cast speed transfrom + 9% cast speed weap. 

As for the dispel.. its not like a cleric where it can be spammed. If used at the wrong time, can't pot out silence and death. 

57 minutes ago, Etrigan-KT said:

Well the topic wasn’t about SW but mostly sorc QQ. But yes, songweaver is a broken class when it obtains kaisinel or marchutan. That sleep, para, 3 shot combo is stupid

yeah only with capped att and cast speed. outside of that its literally junk.

3 minutes ago, Arhangelos-KT said:

Sleep is removable once you get 1 hit, the only cc that does that, every other true CC (stuns, knockdowns) are removable as long as you have remove shock ready but you only have one remove shock while most classes have multiple stuns, lockdowns etc.

If you meant fear then I agree, it would simply turn into another form of sleep if it is removable. Thankfully they increase the defense you get when in fear. Still OP as an absolute debuff that renders you powerless.

Which is as cheap as a root in openworld, when the opponent drags a mob with them. 

[Ryzin-DN]

5 minutes ago, Ele-DN said:

Idk what build sorcs use but instance sleep chained to another sleep is annoying if its caught offguard.

Cast speed can be compared, until it can get March/kaisinel. Sorcs mainy need casting speed as the attack based ccs are close to instance. Sws are all long chains. when sws first came out till now, and even now its debatable, its priority was att speed over cast. Attack speed harp combine, gloves, scrolls, you name it. And that is to get out long delayed cc skills out quick. after 4.8, when vision stigmas came out, sws skill rotation changed a bit for pvp. To kill anything, it needs to though the same process as a sorc. Sleep,+/bury cc, burst. And with that, casting 4-5 + 3 sec burst skills with a hybrid att/cast speed transfrom + 9% cast speed weap. 

As for the dispel.. its not like a cleric where it can be spammed. If used at the wrong time, can't pot out silence and death. 

yeah only with capped att and cast speed. outside of that its literally junk.

What is an attack based CC? All sorcs sleeps are not affected by cast speed buffs or debuffs

[Ele-DN]

6 minutes ago, Ryzin-DN said:

What is an attack based CC? All sorcs sleeps are not affect by cast speed buffs or debuffs

For sw, stinging note adagio, silence/bind, are non cast speed attacks, but the trade off is long attack animations (which is why attack speed stuff were popular). Outside of instant sleep, sws usually try and use these + flutter and such to burry silence/bind for their nukes. If a sw uses these against a sorc doing the same thing w/o instant sleep, sorcs skills would land first.

 

Oh i meant attack speed debuffs + ccs

[Calista-DN]

1 hour ago, Ele-DN said:

For sw, stinging note adagio, silence/bind, are non cast speed attacks, but the trade off is long attack animations (which is why attack speed stuff were popular). Outside of instant sleep, sws usually try and use these + flutter and such to burry silence/bind for their nukes. If a sw uses these against a sorc doing the same thing w/o instant sleep, sorcs skills would land first.

 

Oh i meant attack speed debuffs + ccs

Silence bury on a SW   is not so  hard now - I recall that it used to be hard (with the original chain) - but not since it was changed a while ago. I would also agree that SW clearly  can't dispel like clerics but having one self-dispel is far more powerful than having  no dispels at your disposal, plus self-heals. Again, not as many as heal spec- but that would be even more broken.

I would just say that  besides CC, without ultimate transform for sorcs  and having attack/ casting speed maxed it's even more the setup for PVP  that is especially painful against most classes.

[DevilNest-KT]

On 8/8/2020 at 8:56 PM, Ele-DN said:

Not quite. Sws -800 heal boost when in dps stigmas. 

Sleep Target -> Turn off Impassion -> Switch to HB set -> Cast a Heal -> Sleep Target again -> Cast more heals and bam , from 10% HP back to 80% in 10 seconds if not 100% HP

Like i was watching chikiboom stream few days ago Dueling against another SW and the guy casted 34K heals.

Also SW with hybrid transformations like Frigida or  Apostles Yustiel/Triniel, its at higher cast and attack speed than at 5.8

[Ele-DN]

41 minutes ago, DevilNest-KT said:

Sleep Target -> Turn off Impassion -> Switch to HB set -> Cast a Heal -> Sleep Target again -> Cast more heals and bam , from 10% HP back to 80% in 10 seconds if not 100% HP

Like i was watching chikiboom stream few days ago Dueling against another SW and the guy casted 34K heals.

Also SW with hybrid transformations like Frigida or  Apostles Yustiel/Triniel, its at higher cast and attack speed than at 5.8

That shouldn't really matter what a Sws is healing. "Wasting" ccs to be able to heal it self while the opponent gets their cd for their skills back. Makes no difference. Impassion boosts magic attack by 1k which is a lot and by the time sw gets to full health with 30 sec cd, Im guessing impasion is still on cd? like 10-15 secs? with both sleeps cds, thats 0 chances of getting bursted by sws then right?

 

Not counting the fusion tranforms like the apostles.. frigidas combined attack and casting speed is 55%, while others maxed single is at 45. Are you forgetting how much run speed is lost from that? Fighting other classes, like glads RANGERS, sins, chanters where they capped attack speed even with 35% or even lower, they have 70% run over 45. Now for sw, its a kiting class right? so kit with half the run speed of the opponents. Then theres sheba, matching 60% run but again.. less attack and cast. Theres no trade off here since sw needs BOTH and thats why  SW is only OP with March or Kaisinel(as others have said) to "match" other classes, who don't benefit as much except for capped run speed. 

[DevilNest-KT]

8 minutes ago, Ele-DN said:

That shouldn't really matter what a Sws is healing. "Wasting" ccs to be able to heal it self while the opponent gets their cd for their skills back. Makes no difference.

Yes it does makes a big difference the SW will be full HP while their enemy won't lol.

[Calista-DN]

20 minutes ago, Ele-DN said:

That shouldn't really matter what a Sws is healing. "Wasting" ccs to be able to heal it self while the opponent gets their cd for their skills back. Makes no difference. Impassion boosts magic attack by 1k which is a lot and by the time sw gets to full health with 30 sec cd, Im guessing impasion is still on cd? like 10-15 secs? with both sleeps cds, thats 0 chances of getting bursted by sws then right?

 

Not counting the fusion tranforms like the apostles.. frigidas combined attack and casting speed is 55%, while others maxed single is at 45. Are you forgetting how much run speed is lost from that? Fighting other classes, like glads RANGERS, sins, chanters where they capped attack speed even with 35% or even lower, they have 70% run over 45. Now for sw, its a kiting class right? so kit with half the run speed of the opponents. Then theres sheba, matching 60% run but again.. less attack and cast. Theres no trade off here since sw needs BOTH and thats why  SW is only OP with March or Kaisinel(as others have said) to "match" other classes, who don't benefit as much except for capped run speed. 

and sorcs are also a kiting class that benefit both from cast AND attack speed, have longer CDs than SW, have skills (generally) with longer cast times,  and have poor self-heals. Oh yes- and no skills to improve run speed- unlike SW (at least you  have that option).

I would take your heals if you don't want them lol. Not to mention the run speed .

[Ele-DN]

15 minutes ago, DevilNest-KT said:

Yes it does makes a big difference the SW will be full HP while their enemy won't lol.

Full hp w/o any "useful" cds. I mean.. if you died to a sw with them not using their sleep chain.. they nyerked up. lol

[DevilNest-KT]

40 minutes ago, Ele-DN said:

Full hp w/o any "useful" cds.

 SW cds are a joke, advanced freestyle, 5,5 sec duration on PvP with 13 second CD, yeah what an eternity to wait until the next cd its available right? Lmao

[Vantheria-DN]

Jesus what happened to this thread lmfao

[Ele-DN]

9 minutes ago, DevilNest-KT said:

 SW cds are a joke, advanced freestyle, 5,5 sec duration on PvP with 13 second CD, yeah what an eternity to wait until the next cd its available right? Lmao

Yeah and with ultimate xforms making it on par with other classes. No sw would survive with its initial 1.7 sec cast time. 

[Arhangelos]

1 hour ago, Calista-DN said:

and sorcs are also a kiting class that benefit both from cast AND attack speed

We are the onyl class that rely terribly both on c.speed and attack speed. It would help if there were still SB/Orbs with c.speed and attack speed like before 6.+

Our casting and skill animations are totally pre-6, we are way too slow, only with kaisinel our class becomes playable.

Other classes can reach max attack speed even with ancient transforms and they do not even need c.speed to begin with. And if they ever make a change to SB/Orbs, SM will benefit more, since they are more instant skill than us.

[Malachyte-KT]

7 hours ago, Ele-DN said:

Yeah and with ultimate xforms making it on par with other classes. No sw would survive with its initial 1.7 sec cast time. 

Considering that pure CC skills like Sorc sleep and SM fear are not affected by Cast speed Buffs or Debuffs, I'm still trying to figure out how is it that Freestyle is the one exception to this one rule. If it wasn't for that, there may not be a need to nerf SW Frog and yes it's a nerf in PVP, a boon in PVE. 10.8k base potency on advanced version was allowing for 57K+ crits where with it being about 6.5k in 7.5.2 it will crit for sub maybe a little more than 32k on average. People can say that the cast time of 3s and 60s CD being reduced to 1s cast and 30s CD is the bigger draw but with cast speed if you're at 75% with Marchutan then 3s was only .75s anyway. now it will be .25s cast. 30s is the time it takes for a pot to refresh so a person's survivability from the Wombo-Combo increases quite a bit.

Cast speed should affect ALL casting skills, including CC. With the speed of attacks and casting from everything else easily getting to the cap with buffs and xforms, this needs to be adjusted for the times as well.

7 hours ago, Arhangelos-KT said:

We are the onyl class that rely terribly both on c.speed and attack speed. It would help if there were still SB/Orbs with c.speed and attack speed like before 6.+

Our casting and skill animations are totally pre-6, we are way too slow, only with kaisinel our class becomes playable.

Other classes can reach max attack speed even with ancient transforms and they do not even need c.speed to begin with. And if they ever make a change to SB/Orbs, SM will benefit more, since they are more instant skill than us.

SM is just as heavily reliant on atk speed for the animations as we have a lot of long animations for insta-cast skills and between cast time skills. SW require both as well. Be happy that you at least got Cast speed buffs to mitigate some of those cast times, SM doesn't have cast speed buffs so we can't mitigate most cast speed debuffs very well. We'd have to pop Viola minion.

In fact, EVERYONE needs atk speed. The fact that it plays such a heavy role in ALL skill animation speeds is kinda dumb. Cast speed should affect all animations just as atk speed or have both affect neither.  Try doing luna without atk speed xform or minion vault, night and day difference. The fact that they went with animation speeds being factored into skill transition speeds instead of just using a global CD for non-chain skills and select other skills was a mistake that offers more advantages than just the obvious ones we're listing here. They can easily adjust it too because if I recall correctly they had to fix it in test long ago either before beta or before remove shock skill was implemented after launch because atk speed affected how fast you got up from the knocked down state, rez animations, opening wings for flight, and weapon draw speed- in fact on the last one they had issues with it for most classes which is why they opted to just teleport the weapon to your hand while you're moving and you pull it out or put it away.

[Arhangelos]

22 hours ago, Malachyte-KT said:

SM is just as heavily reliant on atk speed for the animations as we have a lot of long animations for insta-cast skills and between cast time skills. SW require both as well. Be happy that you at least got Cast speed buffs to mitigate some of those cast times, SM doesn't have cast speed buffs so we can't mitigate most cast speed debuffs very well. We'd have to pop Viola minion.

In fact, EVERYONE needs atk speed.

Of course they need it, everyone needs attack speed, but sorc has the longest casting skills in game than any other class, while SM could sacrifice some of his c.speed for an additional attack speed in the legendary transform, we can't. We need c.speed far more than SM needs it so for us to sacrifice c.speed to get some attack speed is like suicide, our ulties would need a ton of time to be cast and we die much faster than SM dies since we have the least amount of survivability in the game.

In the end we agree, attack speed shouldn't be necessary to all classes, attack speed should be for physical users and casting speed should be for magic users. Skill animation should be affected by the stat that corresponds to the type of skill (magic or physical as well).

[Pylon-KT]

On 2020-08-07 at 4:58 PM, Malachyte-KT said:

I'm going to be honest, I was on the "sorcs are in need of help train" until I started seeing people like Pro, Fealty's sorc, Ereshkigal, Vesu (when his ass played), and a couple others on their sorcs in PVP and literally 2-4 shot peeps who are also maxed geared.  This includes plate classes with approaching and beyond 100k HP.  In Pro's case he routinely hits people for 33-43K+ dmg and openly communicates via discord when who or when he is sleeping a target. There are plenty of KR sorc AoD and open-world pvp video for 7.5 and 7.7 which are showing the class routinely annihilating people. Qzxw and Ckdrmsdl are a couple sorcs off the top of my head. They have no problems using sleep and even utilize it not solely for the CC component but to wait out certain buffs on classes to expire before a quick 2-4 skill cast rotation that quickly dispatches the poor target that sat there slept for like 10s+ just waiting to die.

These same sorcs are routinely at the top of the parse for PvE instances, WB, and Siege to boot. BlackRaven is a prime example of a great PvE sorc and he plays from a place where his ping isn't the greatest.

I don't know how it is on the asmo side as I haven't ran into any sorcs or heard of any that cause any kind of trepidation as those busters i mentioned up above.  Is it possible you guys may just need to rethink your gear load out priority, enchant up stigmas/gemstones/runestones/, and adjust skill rotations? Maybe what worked in the past patches, isn't what's best now in this patch?

I'm not trying to talk down to you guys at all as I too believed you guys needed some love but man, I've recently been thinking otherwise.

Imagine Pylon can 5-0 any of the sorcs u mentioned in AOD for as many as times u want and people would cry for a sm in group PVP but not a sorc ... It gave me the exactly opposite impression that sorc is a less-favored class in PVP.

[Pylon-KT]

On 2020-08-07 at 4:58 PM, Malachyte-KT said:

I'm going to be honest, I was on the "sorcs are in need of help train" until I started seeing people like Pro, Fealty's sorc, Ereshkigal, Vesu (when his ass played), and a couple others on their sorcs in PVP and literally 2-4 shot peeps who are also maxed geared.  This includes plate classes with approaching and beyond 100k HP.  In Pro's case he routinely hits people for 33-43K+ dmg and openly communicates via discord when who or when he is sleeping a target. There are plenty of KR sorc AoD and open-world pvp video for 7.5 and 7.7 which are showing the class routinely annihilating people. Qzxw and Ckdrmsdl are a couple sorcs off the top of my head. They have no problems using sleep and even utilize it not solely for the CC component but to wait out certain buffs on classes to expire before a quick 2-4 skill cast rotation that quickly dispatches the poor target that sat there slept for like 10s+ just waiting to die.

These same sorcs are routinely at the top of the parse for PvE instances, WB, and Siege to boot. BlackRaven is a prime example of a great PvE sorc and he plays from a place where his ping isn't the greatest.

I don't know how it is on the asmo side as I haven't ran into any sorcs or heard of any that cause any kind of trepidation as those busters i mentioned up above.  Is it possible you guys may just need to rethink your gear load out priority, enchant up stigmas/gemstones/runestones/, and adjust skill rotations? Maybe what worked in the past patches, isn't what's best now in this patch?

I'm not trying to talk down to you guys at all as I too believed you guys needed some love but man, I've recently been thinking otherwise.

Imagine Pylon can 5-0 any of the sorcs u mentioned in AOD for as many as times u want and people would cry for a sm in group PVP but not a sorc ... It gave me the exactly opposite impression that sorc is a less-favored class in PVP.

[Delessa-DN]

Guess assassin might have to go back to using vampiric slash since feral is getting neutered. 50% HP was one of the primary points of using that as VS does more backstab damage by far. DA being a toggle is excellent though. Vandal nukes getting nerfed is long overdue.

 

Godstones coming back? Darn. Did miss the double para/silence.

[Malachyte-KT]

9 hours ago, Pylon-KT said:

Imagine Pylon can 5-0 any of the sorcs u mentioned in AOD for as many as times u want and people would cry for a sm in group PVP but not a sorc ... It gave me the exactly opposite impression that sorc is a less-favored class in PVP.