steel rake bans [Merged]

[Wsnow]

This is a joke I think NCsoft west needs to get someone to come in game and see this 1st hand and then say doing repeats in SR you cant get banned for. Or they need to contract NCsoft KR and ask them should they be banning players for doing the repeat quests in SR via going in and out of SR. 

?I think they would get there answer from NCsoft KR as I think if NCsoft KR done the ban wave like NCsoft West there would have also been an uproar in KR. 

If KR players can still do the SR repeats the way its always been done then NCsoft West will have to admit they got this wrong. 

Its sad that NCsoft west is dealing with this the way they are and players are suffering after all its the players that are paying them there wages and that is meant to be to do there job correctly not how its being done now. 

 

 

[Lunasan]

NCsoft west makes the same mistakes over and over again, with every game, they just don't learn from it and then wonder when everyone is angry and leaves the game. And ignore the forum, that's always the same NCsoft west tactics!

No answer to anything....

[Airashi]

6 hours ago, Coldlight said:

I'd recommend anyone receiving these unwarranted bans to issue a refund with your bank. I'll continue to escalate this with NCSoft. 

I've already contacted my bank to block all transactions relating to NCSOFT until further notice, as I can't even log into my account via website to cancel the subscription. Bank also advised me to initiate a credit card chargeback due to 'financial manipulation and fraudulent practices' employed by NCSOFT.  Let's see how this pans out tommorow  before initiating the chargeback.

 

1 hour ago, Swns said:

I have no clue what you guys are up to at NCSOFT, but you are yet again on a rampage to destroy a beautiful game, which has been destroyed by the same stupidness years ago. 

Aion retail died due to the korean developers taking the game to a different pathway from what players had envisoned.

Aion Classic reinvigorated things and brought back the game that players once knew and loved. The vast majority of current players are old gen loyal returning players, playing for nostalgic reasons and to experience what a great game it was back in the days.  Right now, not even 2months in, the NCwest team is actively sabotaging the game and alienating the playerbase. They don't realise that the playerbase now is vastly more mature than in 2009 but they still treat their clients like fools. If you lose these veteran players, the game is absolutely done and dusted.

This all culminated to the latest announcement by @Kibbelzwhich publicly confirmed how incompetent and disillusioned the NCwest team are with their own product and player base. Even the staunchest NCwest defenders are left shaking their heads. This announcement is totally worthy of a meme.

NCwest trying to stop the kinah exploiters via the Ban Rake entry quest, ended up banning unrelated and innocent players doing their repeatable quest. They've gone so far off from a tangent, but the disturbing thing is, they don't realise they've gotten it so woefully wrong. This is because they don't play the game and don't know how it works.

This is beginning to turn into a circus.

[Jian]

They don't know their own game, it's a lost cause.

When they answer me to ticket, they dunno how works kisks and auto resurrection stones LMAO

[Aaabatery]

11 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

Just to close out this topic with everyone - there are no issues we have been able to identify with the execution of this ban wave.

While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance repeatedly (often dozens of times) to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.

We would encourage all users to review our User Agreement here for further information; specifically Section 3 which relates to prohibited conduct.

THIS IS A HUGE, HUGE MISTAKE AND MISUNDERSTANDING. Since 2009 we did multiple turn-ins during SR runs. NO ONE GOT BANNED, EVER, BECAUSE IT WAS NOT AN ABUSE.

IS THIS REALLY AION CLASSIC?

Congratulations now no one is running SR, and we are locked of the only PvE set we can get in this patch.

 

You just can't tell apart people from entering/existing to exploit from people who legit enter/exit to do turn ins because the solution you made is terrible.

[Vantheria-DN]

The sadly funny thing is, it's kind of on us in a way. Like, a lot of us quit Aion Retail because of how poorly NCsoft manages it. We stupidly thought Aion Classic would somehow be managed differently with the same team running things. That's our bad for being naive and hopeful.

I'm really sorry to everyone who was banned for this stupid af reason while ACTUAL cheaters and bots still run rampant across the maps. It's so unfair. Aion Retail is down to one server -- literally its last leg -- and this is a huge nail in the coffin for Classic to head down the same death road. Really sad. 

[Xinxian]

..Sure am glad I didn't do hairpins yet leading into this.  Who could have ever guessed that, over a decade later, a routine form of questing would result in a massive ban wave

[Peto]

they banned me for 7 days, ban-time has ended 2hours ago and I still not able to login.

Dang, Engrish is not my main. Im still finding some cool sentences to comment about that.

[Tonykev]

14 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

Just to close out this topic with everyone - there are no issues we have been able to identify with the execution of this ban wave.

While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance repeatedly (often dozens of times) to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.

We would encourage all users to review our User Agreement here for further information; specifically Section 3 which relates to prohibited conduct.

@Kibbelzyour reply seems to indicate that you guys are mixing up the kinah exploit (which involves entering the quest instance, distinctly separate from normal SR) and people re-entering their still open SR instance to farm the hairpin quest.

The kinah exploit involves repeatedly abandoning a quest and reaccepting it to move in and out of the instance, no cool down is triggered. 

The hairpin repeats involves moving in and out of the instance via normal means, completing the quest and reaccepting it. Note, NOT abandoning the quest. This is clearly within the normal game mechanics and the quest has a repeat limit, just as the instance has a limited amount of mobs per cooldown. No part of this is exploiting, we've been doing it for 10+ years. It also does not remotely involve generating excess kinah.

If people are only getting banned for the Kinah exploit, good. If people are getting banned from a repeat quest turn in...........you need to clarify that NCsoft understands the difference. Right now many of us who don't even run SR are watching this thread in alarm and considering charge backs.

[Stormrequiem]

Hi all. after a long investigation because I was also affected and I have never done any kind of misconduct.I think I have decrypted it, in a response I got the following:

https://ibb.co/ZM1Dkn2

If they can figure it out, they tell me to check this link:

https://forums.aiononline.com/topic/9211-kinah-exploit-2-and-noone-cares/
 

In which people are shown entering several times to perform a quest that is done INDIVIDUALLY, where they are supposed to do something strange, due to this post, Kibbels announces:

https://ibb.co/9hyHV4h

Which makes me think that they think that all the people who are doing the Steel Rake instance (doing the quest rep x 20 for the Steel Beard Pirate's set), are the same people who are taking advantage of that exploit. I understand that your records show entries to Steel Rake but you have to understand that they are two different locations, where I am going to get my set performing the quests several times if the group does not break I can continue entering an instance that has not been reset, for Hence the enemies that once killed, would no longer be, that applies to chests and other bosses, but otherwise in that specific quest where each you enter individually everything I suppose is reset and it is possible to kill what you already had killed before with no cooldown or anything, The gentlemen of NC must realize that they are sanctioning people who have nothing to do with what they were taking advantage of that situation.

They should have a record that shows who was taking advantage of that exploit, but you should do a deeper investigation.

[Rubyel]

"Lastly, upon checking, your purchase of Siel's Aura isn't made from our website. That being said, we we're unable to refund this transaction. You will need to contact the retailer from whom you purchased from for assistance with a refund."

 

well there will be no return of siel aura time lost by your mistake, not ours. and I'm sure if I go to the game time card dealer and ask for the money back I will be banned again. NC you just cornered us. it seems to me that you know very well what you are doing. (time lost without refund equals more money). another point RETURN IS DIFFERENT FROM COMPENSATION.

[Zalinto]

@Kibbelz

 If you could do one thing as CM it should be communicate properly the issues at hand.  The people who heavily damaged the economy with infinite kinah exploit in SR are walking around free but you're now supporting a ban of people for turning in repeatable quests 2 times?   What the acutal...

 

Abandoning the entry quest to infinitely go back in and loot kinah chests is NOT the same as entering the instance and turning in the repeatable quest again.  They are not "Daily" quests, they are repetable quests.  You are wrong. 

(I was not banned, I just don't approve of the stance on this issue - and I very heavily do not approve of the real issue not being fixed)

[Arctic]

Hey everyone. I have relayed the concerns here to game team, especially ones including specific gameplay details involving SR. In most cases I sent these as exact quotes to reduce any chance of miscommunication.

I hope to have a follow-up with you in the near future.

[Rubyel]

try to be didactic to see if some understand.

THE STEEL RAKE EXPLOIT HAS BEEN FIXED.

how did they fix it? (They simply removed the treasure chests from  the ACESS quest). for those who do not understand the STEEL RAKE map that you only enter once to do the quest , you agree or not that it is or is not the same place , BUT IT IS THE SAME LOCATION what changes are the conditions .

1 - you only access via npc with a formed group (HAS CD 5 HOURS)

2 - you only access once to do the SOLO quest (NO CD) if you want to be sure and simple assemble a group and enter the access quest area and place the mouse over your group cursor where it shows its location (it will appear STEEL RAKE not STEEL RAKE QUEST OU ENTRY QUEST) and if you open the map it will also show the full STEEL RAKE map. for those who know the access maps well they don't have a MAP when you try to see something written in Korean appears and it doesn't show the map as well as KARAMATIS /ISLE OF LIGHT etc etc. and you're stuck so you can't walk the map.

so even trapped inside the cell a hacker can go through the walls to go through the whole instance and can use the lower crank to go up to the mid as well as he can use the anchor and the cannon to get to the grogget even he kills the bosses inside the ENTRY QUEST if he can solo them and YES THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO DROP BECAUSE THEY ARE REAL.

YES AND THE SAME COMPLETE MAP has all the monsters, all the bosses, the chests all the same, do you know why? because the map is a spectacle of REAL INSTANCE. anything you remove from the STEEL RAKE map THAT YOU MEANS ENTRY STEEK RAKE  will be removed from the normal instance if they removed the 4 chests from the entry quest and all of a sudden the 4 chests also disappeared from the SR (5 hrs CD) why? if maps are different if they are different locations? THEY ARE NOT! are the same map.

what was not clear is if the EXPLOIT HAD ALREADY BEEN FIXED BECAUSE THE BANS CAME AFTER THE FIX and not during the correction process?

simple to answer. because some player made a report of another player AFTER THE CORRECTION and it was saying SR EXPLOIT. probably the GM CHECKED THE LOG AND SAW STEEL RAKE - 4-8-10 ENTRYS (MEAN THE REP QUESTS) more in the log is not specified the location does not exist in the log STEEL RAKE ENTRY QUEST/ STEEL RAKE INSTANCE ,probably when checking the log it shows only 1 name and the number of times you enter.

EXAMPLE : i have done the ENTRY QUEST AND 1 RUN SR

LOG of my character :

STEEL RAKE ENTRY QUEST = 1 ENTRY

STEEL RAKE INSTANCE = 1 ENTRY

its seen normal right? if the GM want to know the exploit he simple check the logs. lets try a EXPLOIT ONE

LOG of my character : THE WHO REAL EXPLOIT

STEEL RAKE ENTRY QUEST = 48 ENTRYS ( EXPLOIT CONFIRMED)

STEEL RAKE INSTANCE = 0 our dont care the number .

this examples show the normal way and what we expected from the GM check. BUT FOR SURE THAT WAS NOT THE WAY.

i think is THAT WAY:

EXAMPLE : i have done the ENTRY QUEST AND 3 RUN SR

LOG of my character:

STEEL RAKE INSTACE = 4 ENTRY

4 ? YES 4 CUZ THEY ARE THE SAME PLACE SAME LOG.  CUZ THIS THEY MIXED EVERYTHING.

PLUS  the mass ban because the GM must have wondered "if the bug has already been fixed why these people are logging 8-10 times in the same instance?.

what was done is a confusion between repeat quest and the exploit that had already been fixed.

[Selatan]

15 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance repeatedly (often dozens of times) to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.

Thank you for all of the responses Kibbelz, but this part of your last comment still baffles me and I genuinely cannot believe something like this was posted and considered an acceptable response.

Can you, honestly, answer this one question? If people are re-entering an already open instance what are the extra or "higher amounts" of rewards people are getting? For this specific repeatable quest people are doing they're going in, killing mobs, and getting quest items. Then, they leave (through one of the many exits the instance PROVIDES) and turning it in, accepting the next repeatable, and entering....all during the exact same instance. So those mobs they killed before? They're dead and no longer there. They aren't going to respawn, so no extra loot is even a possibility. And this has been done for years, but suddenly it's not allowed? What??? It's absolutely absurd.

This has to be a massive misshap on NcWest's part. I just can't believe there is any other explanation. You have to be mixing up the people ACTUALLY exploiting Steel Rake (which is incredibly easy to check!!! Why in the world isn't the team doing this? Are they that lazy/incompetent?) and the innocent people doing the repeatable. What is going on? 

[Wsnow]

1 hour ago, Kibbelz said:

Hey everyone. I have relayed the concerns here to game team, especially ones including specific gameplay details involving SR. In most cases I sent these as exact quotes to reduce any chance of miscommunication.

I hope to have a follow-up with you in the near future.

Sorry @Kibbelz I know this is not down to you but the team should know what they are doing, not ban players for no good reason because they don't know what the hell they are doing. I am asking you as a GM to come in game and see for yourself what the issue is and I think its only right someone should do this without all these lame replies players are getting. This has gone to far the team it meant to know how the game is run but they don't and that is the shame of NCSoft West for running a game thing no nothing about. 

Before ban hammers come down for all the players the team that dealing with this should know what the hell they are doing and tbh right now should lose there jobs for what has been done. 

SR Repeat quests have been done this way since the start of Aion in 2009, and tbh if NCsoft west had just asked NCsoft KR how the hell SR should be run they would know that doing the repeat quests in this manner has always been how it done. 

Don't any of the team dealing with this look at the money side before they ban as they would see that the players doing the repeat quests don't end up with shit loads of money, the players cheating will of cause end up with a lot more money each run they do by using the quest which every player has to do to be able to run SR in the 1st place. 

NCsoft KR already has a fix for this bug why the hell did NCsoft west not use it before they got things so damm wrong.  

And for once NCsoft west should admit they made a mistake and deal with it for the players who been banned wrongly. 

[Amarah-KT]

1 hour ago, Kibbelz said:

Hey everyone. I have relayed the concerns here to game team, especially ones including specific gameplay details involving SR. In most cases I sent these as exact quotes to reduce any chance of miscommunication.

I hope to have a follow-up with you in the near future.

Thank you!!   I hope when this is all over the blenishes can be removed from these accounts also.  Obviously its going to be hard to properly compensate the players in a manner that will make everyone happy.  But getting some of these problems in game fixed is beneficial to both company and customer.  So thank you for remaining dedicated!  And also for the more frequent responses!!

[Arctic]

1 hour ago, Zalinto said:

You're now supporting a ban of people for turning in repeatable quests 2 times?   What the acutal...

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not simply running it more than once and/or completing the repeatable quests. Updated the original text to make this more clear.

[Wsnow]

1 minute ago, Kibbelz said:

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not running it twice

No players are being banned for running an instance how it been run since 2009 doing the repeat quests and never before getting banned. 

the issue is with the entry quest quest the quest every player has to do to be able to enter SR, if players don't complete this entry quest they cant do SR, now you have players that do this the right way and complete it on the 1st go, then you have the players they abuse this quest to get the chests and don't complete the quest and do it over and over again to be able to get the chests with money in. 

These 2 things are not the same and it seems you team is treating them the same and banning players who have not done anything wrong.

 

[Bip]

3 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not simply running it more than once. Updated the original text to make this more clear.

Except that getting in and out of the instance to kill more mobs and finish a 20-times repeatable quest (20-times, LIMITED) to get ONE PIECE of equipment is not an exploit. It has never been an exploit.

If that is what your game -hahaha- team consider exploit, then please ban me and everyone else that kills 2 rounds of guards and only then collect all the items to turn in the quest multiple times to get more experience.

Please. PLEASE. P L E A S E. Have NCsoft to hire ONE PERSON that ACTUALLY plays the game to review this kind of stuff. This is beyond frustrating.

[Bip]

3 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I spoke with the team about the exact criteria involved. Completing the repeatable quest 20 times would not have been labelled as exploitative.

I think that the "problem" that they are finding in the logs is that you are not running a new entity of the SR instance. You are just exiting it, thus not making the CD reset, turning in the quest and re-entering on the same entity, same CD.

Still makes zero sense to me how they would not be able to see this in the logs. Unless everyone here is lying and they in fact did the kinah exploit.

Again: using the same cooldown (aka entity) of one SR run to get in and get out of the instance multiple times to turn in the quest is NOT AGAINST TOS.

[Inactive]

21 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I spoke with the team about the criteria involved, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

Well then~

That leaves me with my favorite top four, not limited as to pick one, bots reporting people entering the growth quest instance, other people reporting people entering the growth quest (maliciously or out of ignorance), support confusing people not using the backpack npc's item to teleport out as some sort of indicator that they are abusing the bug (or similar), or there are a lot of people that really did abuse this bug.

 

15 minutes ago, Bip said:

I think that the "problem" that they are finding in the logs is that you are not running a new entity of the SR instance. You are just exiting it, thus not making the CD reset, turning in the quest and re-entering on the same entity, same CD.

Again: using the same cooldown (aka entity) of one SR run to get in and get out of the instance multiple times to turn in the quest is NOT AGAINST TOS.

Perhaps they are confusing "Steel Rake" with "Steel Rake"~

When one enters a Steel Rake by quest, can they search others inside a group ran version of Steel Rake by limiting the search to "Current Region"? So to speak~

[Inactive]

18 minutes ago, Bip said:

Still makes zero sense to me how they would not be able to see this in the logs. Unless everyone here is lying and they in fact did the kinah exploit.

I wonder if some of them are exploiters, but some aren't. Perhaps some are sockpuppeting as it's called.

[nyk-DN]

19 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

Then, why my brother got banned? He just was going in and out of the instance many times, and it happened on monday,  when those chests with gold were already removed i think. And when he explained this in his support ticket, they just ignored him.  

[Coldlight]

28 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

I was suspended, and this is all I've done. They overturned the suspension, but I'm honestly at a loss. Hopefully you get some answers soon because this is ridiculous. @Kibbelz