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56 minutes ago, Kibbelz said:

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not simply running it more than once and/or completing the repeatable quests. Updated the original text to make this more clear.

Ok but myself and a bunch of others in this thread have been banned with no actual proof of what we exploited, when all we have been doing is running SR and doing repeatables. Why are we all being lumped in with actual exploiters. Not only does it make US look bad when we haven't done anything, but support is not giving us anything that literally shows us "exploiting" whatever it is that we have apparently been banned for.

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Another day and another locked thread, so here we go again.  I truly hope there will be some sort of compensation for the people who are losing time and their money.  Also damaging their reputations- 

that's just it @Cherish what is the attribute that the GM is using to ban the accounts that are being reported? for something that for 12 years was legal and out of nowhere without prior not

The problem is: THEY CAN. Someone abusing the kinah exploit would have to be entering the instance by Beluslan or Heiron multiple times AND also dropping the SR ENTRY QUEST while doing so. I can't

5 minutes ago, Cherish said:

  

Ok but myself and a bunch of others in this thread have been banned with no actual proof of what we exploited, when all we have been doing is running SR and doing repeatables. Why are we all being lumped in with actual exploiters. Not only does it make US look bad when we haven't done anything, but support is not giving us anything that literally shows us "exploiting" whatever it is that we have apparently been banned for.

They won't ever provide proof as it is nature to them. This stems from hack-type bans. Personally, I don't think it matters with this exploit, but they probably will keep to their ways.

 

And oh by the way, proof and reason for ban are not the same thing~

Edited by Kynurenigh
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1 hour ago, Kibbelz said:

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not simply running it more than once and/or completing the repeatable quests. Updated the original text to make this more clear.

Just to clarify, when people are doing these repeatables here's what they're doing:

1. Kill and loot enough mobs to finish hairpin quest

2. The players that are done hairpin quest leave, usually 1-3 at most since people are often at different points in their quest and don't finish at the same time. The remaining player stay in the instance, sometimes continuing to kill other mobs.

3. The players turn-in the quest at the Shugo outside the instance, come back into the same instance, and continue to do the instance as normal. Go back to number 1 and rinse/repeat maybe 2-3 times per run until they run out of mobs that drop hairpins and do the instance as normal.

 

So by doing the repeatable quest normally, players do indeed leave and re-enter the same instance run 2-3 times (and complete 2-3 repeatables of the quest) before completing the rest of the instance.

Is this specific method of completing the hairpins quest ok?

Or are players only allowed to complete one repeat of this quest per dungeon run (as opposed to 2-3 repeats per dungeon run)?

In other words, are we allowed to complete this repeatable in 7-10 runs of the instance, or do we have to do a full 20 runs to complete this?

Edited by Leiloni
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1 hour ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

cool, im waiting for another reason then. From your above sentence, I really dont know why they banned me.

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1 hour ago, Kynurenigh said:

Well then~


That leaves me with my favorite top four, not limited as to pick one, bots reporting people entering the growth quest instance, other people reporting people entering the growth quest (maliciously or out of ignorance), support confusing people not using the backpack npc's item to teleport out as some sort of indicator that they are abusing the bug (or similar), or there are a lot of people that really did abuse this bug.

 

Perhaps they are confusing "Steel Rake" with "Steel Rake"~


When one enters a Steel Rake by quest, can they search others inside a group ran version of Steel Rake by limiting the search to "Current Region"? So to speak~

Or...people get banned if they sell enough things at the npc inside the instance, perhaps?

 

Well, there are a lot of possibilities~

Edited by Kynurenigh
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15 minutes ago, Plapouille said:

IF ("Steel Rake's entry quest" completed

THEN do nothing

IF NOT

IF ("Chest from Steel rake"  attacked

OR Kinah gained from "Steel Rake's Chests" > 0

THEN FLAG ))

That would fail to do it appropriately~

 

Though I just thought of something. If there are people in a group for Steel Rake, but no one entered and someone did the entry quest while in group, would that instance be used for the group and/or thus confuse detection? Perhaps also for a false flag someone would also have to attack a chest in the same type of scenario?

Edited by Kynurenigh
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1 hour ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

so why have players been banned for doing just that running SR and doing the quest handing it in and then going back into SR, remembering these said players are in a group how SR is meant to be run and they are getting banned and being told it due to using the SR exploit?

This needs to be Sorted ASAP and for the players who have been banned wrongly told they are sorry for the ban. 

So if I go in SR when ready and do the quests and hand them in I and re enter SR on the same run I wont get banned as you are now stating that would not be classed as an exploit?

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1 minute ago, Wsnow said:

so why have players been banned for doing just that running SR and doing the quest handing it in and then going back into SR, remembering these said players are in a group how SR is meant to be run and they are getting banned and being told it due to using the SR exploit?

This needs to be Sorted ASAP and for the players who have been banned wrongly told they are sorry for the ban. 

So if I go in SR when ready and do the quests and hand them in I and re enter SR on the same run I wont get banned as you are now stating that would not be classed as an exploit?

I do find it odd that they would ban 7 days instead of permanently for a supposed kinah exploit. Perhaps they know they can't detect it accurately or it's not having to do with the kinah exploit.

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  • Aion Team

@Bip I apologize. I mis-read the content of your post and cannot say either way in your case. It is possible that what you mentioned could be viewed as an exploit by the game team. I will follow-up once I have more concrete details to provide. Thanks.

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4 minutes ago, Kynurenigh said:

I do find it odd that they would ban 7 days instead of permanently for a supposed kinah exploit. Perhaps they know they can't detect it accurately or it's not having to do with the kinah exploit.

The problem is: THEY CAN.

Someone abusing the kinah exploit would have to be entering the instance by Beluslan or Heiron multiple times AND also dropping the SR ENTRY QUEST while doing so. I can't believe that this sort of info is not in their logs.

1 minute ago, Kibbelz said:

@Bip I apologize. I mis-read the content of your post and cannot say either way in your case. It is possible that what you mentioned could be viewed as an exploit by the game team. I will follow-up once I have more specific details to provide. Thanks.

But that hasn't been an exploit since 2009. Why would it be now? Lol. It makes, again, zero sense. If they want you to complete the quest in 20 SR entries, then make it a ONE time quest from an NPC inside the instance that resets everytime your CD resets. Or make it a daily quest for 20 days completion. Or make it so you can't re-enter the instance once you leave.

Even if you couldn't enter the instance again people would still kill double the amount of mobs and still complete the quest 2 times per run. Again, @Kibbelz, the entire quest chain only rewards ONE ITEM and it cannot be repeated. Why would that be an exploit?

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9 minutes ago, Bip said:

The problem is: THEY CAN.

Someone abusing the kinah exploit would have to be entering the instance by Beluslan or Heiron multiple times AND also dropping the SR ENTRY QUEST while doing so. I can't believe that this sort of info is not in their logs.

I wouldn't be surprised if their logging was horrible~

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5 minutes ago, Bip said:

The problem is: THEY CAN.

Someone abusing the kinah exploit would have to be entering the instance by Beluslan or Heiron multiple times AND also dropping the SR ENTRY QUEST while doing so. I can't believe that this sort of info is not in their logs.

But that hasn't been an exploit since 2009. Why would it be now? Lol. It makes, again, zero sense. If they want you to complete the quest in 20 SR entries, then make it a ONE time quest from an NPC inside the instance that resets everytime your CD resets. Or make it a daily quest for 20 days completion. Or make it so you can't re-enter the instance once you leave.

TBH if it was not intended to be able to do the repeat quest and you could only do it once per run why is there so many mobs that drop the quest item ?

Why was it not banned in 2009 and fixed if it was not intended to be able to do the repeat quest in this way ?

They have had much time to fix this if it was a bug with the repeat quest they could have made it once a day, but that's never been done so its not an exploit.

if it was a bug when NCsoft KR fixed the exploit by way of removing the chest box why did they not fix the Repeat quest why was it left the way it is now ? it is due to it was intended to be this way that the repeat could be done multi times in one run. 

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You say doing group full SR run with multi quest turn in is not an exploit but yet everyone I have run SR with has been banned and thats all we have been doing is the quest and all we keep getting in response is some BS auto written response and when I ask directly am i allowed to do SR with 2 hat quest turn in and 3 ledger turn in i get told   thank you for your intrest but however for security reasons we are unable to release any further information... come on @Kibbelz 

if i do SR again am i going to need to do 1 quest per run?

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2 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

Then please, please clarify what is going on. Because THIS is what everyone commenting here has been doing, not exploiting Steel Rake. You can even easily check this by looking at the transactions of the characters and how much kinah they have amassed if you guys are really confusing the kinah exploit and something else.

THIS is why my boyfriend, a brand new player, got banned. He was entering SR on one cd entry, leaving on the same entry to turn in the quest when he got enough of the quest item (like everyone else), then re-entering ON THE SAME CD, not a new one, to get the rest of the hairpins he could for the repeatable quest. Is this not allowed? After over a decade? 

Plus it's absolutely unreal that he hasn't received a proper email showing real, solid proof of him 'exploiting'. I've been over his shoulder when he gets some emails and the emails he's gotten from support have had NO evidence of him doing anything wrong, and yet he's still suspended. 

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2 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

I checked with the team about this, and can confirm this behaviour alone would not have been considered/labeled as exploitative. 

I have a friend can't even acess the Forum to complain he already has 2 tickets open. 23739890 and 23740926. Still no response. Could you please analise because he really rush thru SR. 

Best regards Guilherme

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I never felt so disrespected in my gaming life as to the facts that occurred (banishment, lack of communication, abandonment). Unfortunately, of course they did shit and they know they did, but NCwest's ego is bigger than the server.

Humility NC, everyone makes mistakes, but making mistakes and finding ways to cover up your own mistakes keeping undue penalties, penalizing others is something perverse, petty, selfish.

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Hey @Kibbelz,

Appreciate you trying to give us information. But the community really needs clearcut info on what is allowed and what is not. 

Playing Aion feels like rolling the dice for us right now. Information is unclear, terms- and service do not mention this at all. People are trying to figure out what is happening, misinformation everywhere. Please explain to us what exactly you are banning people for and try to differentiate between:

1. People doing regular repeat quests for 1 fabled gear part (causing up to 3/4 re-entries per steel rake instance);

2. Hackers/exploiters re-entering the quest version of steel rake to loot the kinah chest;

3. People selling candy to the NPC vendor and thus bypassing the kinah sell limit

Many people are screaming to be innocent. Maybe they are, maybe they're not. But the "normal" players would like to know what's up. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Rastekkel said:

[Terms of Service] do not mention this at all.

Terms of Service:

Quote

If we determine in our discretion that you failed to comply with our User Agreement (defined below) or this Code of Conduct or other Community Standards, we may limit, suspend, or terminate your access to the Services and/or take other remedial actions that we deem appropriate (e.g., removing violative posts from forums, muting players, etc.).

We may terminate your Account and/or take other appropriate measures, as determined in our sole discretion, if you or anyone using your Account or Name associated with you violates this User Agreement or the Rules of Conduct (including, for clarity, any community standards, policies, codes, or similar rules for the Services posted or otherwise made publicly available by us (“Community Standards”)).

They can ban you if they want to, they can claim they set community standards or have expectations of the community and therefore whatever they say goes. Whether that holds up in court or not is based on the judge, if you were to take it to court and most are unlikely to~

Edited by Kynurenigh
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9 minutes ago, Kynurenigh said:

Terms of Service:

They can ban you if they want to, they can claim they set community standards or have expectations of the community and therefore whatever they say goes. Whether that holds up in court or not is based on the judge, if you were to take it to court and most are unlikely to~

There should not be a need for this NCsoft should come out and say what can and cant be done. there is also the fact any judge will see this and the things that been put to NCsoft and got no reply.

NCsoft standards are way below what they should be and any judge will see this. Also any judge will see this is a pay for service for many players and take account of that, and the time it taken for NCsoft to address this. 

Edited by Wsnow
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6 hours ago, Kibbelz said:

I've seen a few comments like this so want to clarify. Users were banned for exploiting the instance, not simply running it more than once and/or completing the repeatable quests. Updated the original text to make this more clear.

@KibbelzIve been 94hours (almost 4 days) since my last support ticket. Still not a single response. Still don't have a clue on reason of ban. Time and $$ is still ticking...

 

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2 things.

1) Very appreciative that after all the threads that have been locked, this one has stayed up so far and has received input from the company. This is a very big step forward, and a necessary one if we wish to see Aion to continue. With the recent merge of DN/KT on "retail" servers, and with current actions (and lack there of) on Classic, life span after all these years is looking around potentially ~6 months left unless drastic change from NCSoft's part. 

2) @Kibbelz or @Loki feel free to reach out to me. I'm going to assume Kibblez's words were grossly mistaken and I would be happy to be that bridge between the company and player base for clarity sake. Classic was Aion's trump card, we cannot afford to mess this up, not only for us players who have invested so much into the game, but for those working at NCSoft. 

1 extra thing:

Kibblez I've said it before and I'll say it once more, I do appreciate the effort you give in. The last CM to put in this much effort was Bubbles and Trine. I do believe there is a "wall" between communication between players and the company. It has always been a thing and I do not believe it is because of you (same goes with all previous CM's), but those above you. I do genuinely wish to understand what it is that is holding all of us back from being on the same page working together and communicating. Do please reach out.

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@Kibbelz

I'm just gonna say I live in your shoes, working for a phone company, and yes, I spend all day getting yelled at for many supposed infractions, real or imagined.

You're in a tough spot, and I really really get that. 

But one of the reasons that fake "empathy" doesn't work anymore is everybody associates it with being told by some corporate guy in a suit to go pound sand. Why? Because literally every company does it before doing....absolutely nothing. It tends to set people off rather than calm them these days. The usual "customer service" or "call center" blogs are usually written by bean counters who are out of touch. Not your fault, obviously. I get it, I *immensely* get it.

Which is why this morning it really did come off as "No repeat quests for you!" And right or wrong, that will cause *panic*. I am not unhappy with you as a mod, but I foreheadsmacked when I saw that.

Please, for your own sake and ours, make absolutely sure that whoever is monitoring this and making the decisions does know the difference. I played the original. Leaving and returning for Hairpins was definitely considered kosher back in the day. This needs to be very, very clear to whoever is banning. Otherwise, as was suggested, the quest needs to be set as "daily" instead of "repeat". I think this is more a misunderstanding than anything, but if it must be that way, please have them change the quest. It might not hurt to check how things are handled here in Korea as well.

Now...as for some of you...I will say what those at NCSoft cannot...

Without naming names... Yelling at customer service gets you, at best, a harried, panicked servant who trips up. At worst it gets you nothing at all. Threads full of threats and accusations are not helping you or anyone else. (There's a reason they keep getting locked.)

For all NCSoft's problems, their customer service has never given me the impression that they do not want to help. (And I've had over a decade to gain this impression.) No, they aren't perfect. No corporate entity is. But they are human and they try.

If you feel the need to yell, walk away. Come back later when you're calm and ready to report or debate with a clear head. You catch more flies with honey. Yes, it does work. And I know. I'm in this line of work. It works on me, believe it.

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  • Funkula changed the title to steel rake bans [Merged]
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