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Clerig pvp - block or agility set??

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guys I need help, I've seen that the Koreans, instead of putting together a block set, opt for a full agility +10 set, how viable is that?

I would appreciate someone answering :D

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I think they use agility because of the concentration

11 minutes ago, Mempo-KT said:

Block sets offer higher effective damage reduction for less overall wealth investment.

 

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Mempo-KT   
1 minute ago, SValentina-DN said:

I think they use agility because of the concentration

 

You are correct. However the better clerics I know simply use an ABG Chain Hood in place of spending 17+ Sockets on Agility.

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When we talk about block, your enemy only needs to match your block with their accuracy to stop getting blocked. Most cleric block sets nowadays linger between 5.4k ~ 5.8k block (not counting external buffs such as Word of Protection), while high end Precision sets can break 6K Accuracy (since the amount of Accuracy you get from Archdaeva stones got boosted with the latest patches), so you won't be blocking anything at that point, though the fact that you made them switch from their power/atk set to Precision is a kind of mitigation by itself.

The other problem with block gear is that outside of using Boundless armor (which comes mostly from events, because the chance of actually winning the piece you want from sky island invasions is really low, assuming the piece you want even drops), other options such as mythic blood medal/arena gear are really low on pvp defense/overall stats, and they lack godstone suppression, so even against people without accuracy sets you end up being very squishy and a godstone-magnet. 

I still use my boundless block set and I can stay alive decently well when focused in ID/KBF (I use essence in Power too for max Physical Defense), but if I had to make a new toon and only had arena gear I'd just completely skip block gear and go straight for SR/Agility.  


Now compare that to Strike Resist/Agility: here it's your enemy that needs to push their Crit above your Strike Resist in order to actually crit you. Low-end SR sets start at 1.6K ~ 1.7K SR with is fine to counter the normal crit people have in their power/atk sets, but really high end SR/Agility sets can reach 2K ~ 2.1K Strike resist which means they even counter those melees that have 2K crit/precision sets (2.1K SR is really overkill against most opponents, so it's more popular to see hybrid Agility/Power builds, to also buff your Physical Defense).

With Agility/SR builds you aren't restricted to any pvp armor in particular, so you can just go for 75 AP gear which is well rounded in terms of pvp defense/gs suppression/overall stats and it's straight-forward to get, or you can branch out into other stuff such as Ahserion/Boundless/Mythic Rank 1 depending on your resources (I'd personally stick with 75 AP as you can upgrade it to L80 AP gear in 5.8, while Ahserion/Boundless etc have no upgrade paths so they'll start being outdated against the higher pvp attack people will have next patch).

The other upside of Strike Resist is that it tones down the amount of random kds/kbs that melees get when they crit with gs/pa/bow/staff, so you gain more stability/easier kiting/less interrupts.
 

Edited by Hinotori-KT

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i think its time for maths! correct me if i'm mistaken
for the sake of no crit physical maces worth mentioning atm we can ignore the calculation of 2.0 crit modifier

for 1.8 crit multiplier weapons (bow,gs,pa,staff)
block set vs attack (no accuracy)
70% damage reduced 50% chance = 35% overall reduction
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.4x damage average
block override crit so .5% effectiveness of crit
(0.65 * 1) + (0.8 * 0.5) * 0.5
0.65 * (1 + 0.2) =  0.78 average damage taken
from 1.4 average damage taken
1.4 - 0.78 = 0.62

so 62% reduction

agility cap vs attack set = no crits 
=(1 * 1) + (1.8 * 0) * 1
=1.4 - 1

so 40% reduction

for 2.3 crit multiplier weapons (dagger)
70% reduce damage 50% chance = 35% overall reduction
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.65x average damage
block overrides crit so .5% effectiveness of crit
(0.65 * 1) + (1.3 * 0.5) * 0.5
0.65 + 0.32
=97.5% average damage taken

so 67.5% damage reduced

agility cap = no crit
=(1 * 1) + (1.3 * 0) * 1
=1.65-1

so 65% reduction

for 2.2 crit multiplier weapons (sword)
70% reduce damage 50% chance = 35% overall reduction
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.6x average damage
block overrides crit so 50% effectiveness of crit
(0.65 * 1) + (1.2 * 0.5) * 0.5
.65 + .3
=98% average damage taken
1.6-.98 = .62

so 62% damage reduced

agility set vs attack set = no crits
=(1 * 1) + * (1.2 *0) * .5
1.6-1 = .6

so 60% reduction

but there's some catchs

1st: vs the 1.8 weapons even though there's  a huge 22% damage reduction difference you wont get rng knock down since no crits u can only get aether held and the 100% knockdowns skills

2nd: strike fortitude makes agility set slightly worse than it shows here (Crit Weapon Modifier of Opponent - (Player Strike Fortitude * 9 / 10000) = Crit modifier for Opponent) clerics may do their own math with their own strike fortitude.

3rd: agility gives parry (idk how relevant this would be for cleric) but if u account for parry with staff it would be 40% chance 40% reduced damage so 16% damage reduced at the cost of having a mace with heal boost on an agility set.

4th: block is easier to stack against since you only need to reach the threshold ex if you have 4k block and they have 4k acc its a dead stat but strike resist if they have 1.8k crit and you have 1.4k its not wasted, they will be hitting u with 400 crit instead of 1.4k crit  + not many skills give crit as a stat vs things giving accuracy as a stat

Edited by Ariana-DN

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i just wanted to show the strike fortitude effect on block vs agility on 1.8 modifier weapons, full 75 ap set accs and armor fully +15 on my gunner is 290 strike fortitude so i used that as a base and it wouldnt let me edit so ill add an extension to my post above

also another point for agility set is you get concentration to finish your casts more often when people are beating on your face


for 1.8 crit multiplier weapons (bow,gs,pa,staff)
70% damage reduced 50% chance = 35% overall reduction
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.4x damage average
block override crit so .5% effectiveness of crit
(Crit Weapon Modifier of Opponent - (Player Strike Fortitude * 9 / 10000) = Crit Rate for Opponent)
1.8 - (290 * 9 / 10000) = 1.539
(damage after reduction * damage per white hit) + (crit modifier * crit chance) * other crit influences(block)
(0.65 * 1) + (0.539 * 0.5) * 0.5
=78.475% damage taken
therefore 48.4725 damage reduced on average

agaility cap vs attack set = no crits 
= 26.95% reduction (1 * 1) + (1.539 * 0) * 1

the difference between the 2 sets is now 21.5225% vs 22%

Edited by Ariana-DN

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Class who can use shields (Chanters, Clerics, Gladiators, Templars) and are level 10 or higher process an advanced shield mastery skill that adds an additional 5% damage reduction to their shield blocks. This is not reflected in the skill description.

For example:

  • A shield with 70% indicated damage reduction will actually provide 70%+5%=75% damage reduction.
  • A shield with 30% indicated damage reduction will actually provide 30%+5%=35% damage reduction.

The shield damage reduction applies after deducting physical defense damage reduction.

Edited by mooMOOMooMoomoo-KT

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the 5% equates to about 3% reduction after crit is factored in, i figured physical defense gets into opponent's stats too much and using the same base armor you have about the same physical defense so i didn't bother including that in the calculation since its negligible in terms of calculating the difference

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Block does not negate critical hits, but it does reduce the damage of that critical hit to the block damage reduction percentage.

Suppose critical multiplier is 2.2 and the target has no strike fortitude and a 70%+5% damage reduction shield, the damage would be

  • A normal clean hit is 1.0
  • A critical hit is 2.2
  • A blocked hit is 0.25
  • A blocked critical hit is 0.55

If Critical Strike - Strike Resist >= 500 and Block - Accuracy >= 500, each of the above 4 situations have 25% chance to occur.

 

Here's my damage testing, level 72 templar with low level sword (2.2x crit multiplier) vs. level 65 gladiator with +10 fabled shield (65%+5% damage reduction):

Auto attacks: 95-98  / Crits: 209-217
    Blocked: 28-29 / Crits: 62-65

Shieldburst x52 - 16 crits (30.7692%), 0 misses:
658-662  / Crits: 1449-1457

Aether Leash x62 - 24 crits (38.7097%), 0 misses:
94-98 (96 avg) / Crits: 211-217
    Blocked (24x): 28-29  / Crits: 62-64

Shield Shock x113 - 46 crits (40.708%), 0 misses:
251-255 (248 avg) / Crits: 553-561
    Blocked (32x): 75-76  / Crits: 166-168

Inquisitor's Blow x60 - 23 crits (38.3333%), 0 misses:
454-457 (455.438 avg) / Crits: 997-1006
    Blocked (21x): 136-137  / Crits: 299-301

Holy Punishment x6 - 3 crits, 0 misses:
470-470 (470 avg) / Crits: 1037-1039
    Blocked (2x): 140-141  / Crits: 309-309

Sword Storm x28 - 9 crits (32.1429%), 0 misses:
459-463 (461.1 avg) / Crits: 1011-1019
    Blocked (9x): 137-139  / Crits: 304-306

Break Power x85 - 29 crits (34.1176%), 0 misses:
1722-1726 (1724.52 avg) / Crits: 3790-3798
    Blocked (29x): 516-517  / Crits: 1137-1139

Punishing Thrust x41 - 14 crits (34.1463%), 0 misses:
835-1039 (918.182 avg) / Crits: 1837-2279
    Blocked (16x): 250-311  / Crits: 553-683

Shield Bash x38 - 20 crits (52.6316%), 0 misses:
261-264 (261.7 avg) / Crits: 574-582
    Blocked (8x): 78-79  / Crits: 172-174

Edited by mooMOOMooMoomoo-KT

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Mempo-KT   

An SR set gives you no HP cushion to fall back on in case of a good caster in group play, and Crit will be more prevalent than ever in 5.8 as higher enchanted gear allows for higher attack floors to maintain kill potential while investing in Precision.

Tbh, both Block and SR sets will be effective, but against a Precision player or a caster, Block will continue to be useful where as SR will not.

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6 hours ago, Mempo-KT said:

Tbh, both Block and SR sets will be effective, but against a Precision player or a caster, Block will continue to be useful where as SR will not.

If you take a look at korean profiles -> http://aion.plaync.com/live/ranking/character (use google translate), it's actually the opposite, you rarely find clerics wearing a block set, while 80 AP full agility gear is pretty much the standard. And this is considering koreans have had multiple enchanting events where archdaeva gear wouldn't break upon failed enchants, so it's not like they didn't have access to +20 ~ +30 shields to make the ultimate block set, and even then they ended up settling for Agility/SR.

 

An SR set gives you no HP cushion to fall back on in case of a good caster in group play, and Crit will be more prevalent than ever in 5.8 as higher enchanted gear allows for higher attack floors to maintain kill potential while investing in Precision.

Higher enchanted gear also gives extra SR/Phy Def/HP/pvp def, all of which benefits both Block and Agility gear. This argument ends up favouring Agility gear over Block anyway, because in 5.8 you can safely enchant your 80 AP Agility set past +15 to get those bonuses, while Block gear will still be restricted to Boundless armor which breaks on failed enchants, so it's risky trying to go beyond +15. 

Even compared at +15, there's a blatant pvp def difference between 80 AP gear (that you have to use for Agility, because it doesn't have Block bonuses to reach enough Block to be relevant) and Boundless (the only acceptable gear to use for Block, because arena/blood medal are so outdated at this point that you may as well go naked and save your kinah), so if you're worried about having some defense against magic classes, then Agility still comes out as the winner, not because of the Agility itself of course, but because you can use 80 AP gear for that which is by far the most well rounded option.

 

13 hours ago, Ariana-DN said:

i figured physical defense gets into opponent's stats too much and using the same base armor you have about the same physical defense so i didn't bother including that in the calculation since its negligible in terms of calculating the difference

Both Block and Agility sets can have very varying amounts of phy def because in both cases you have several armor options to build those sets. For Block you have Boundless (anything from the 72 to the L80 version) / Arena / Blood Medal, while for Agility/SR you can find people wearing anything from 75 AP / Mythic Rank 1 / Ahserion / Boundless / Arena / Blood Medal and even officer gear, so you can find SR sets with 3.5k phy def while others chill at almost 6K, also influenced by manastone/essence choices, some people prefer to go with a hybrid Power/Agility build to supplement their Phy Def (since against most people you don't need to go full Agility/SR), while others stick to full Agi/SR depending on their resources/goal stats.

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HP is nice but negligible against a good caster if your dps aren't focusing the caster in a grp of full physical dps + 1 magical that caster will kill a block cleric in 2 seconds flat (ive seen missile guides hit for 16k crits on block set clerics and its followed up by 4 instant cannon shots for about 4k average hit). the idea is u need to be swapping sets and watching your positioning (if their all melee and you're up top in idl, do u really need to be in sr/block set). the thing i don't like about hp is that its nice since you sponge up damage but it also sponges up heals( like a cleric healing an xform takes forever but also takes forever to burn ), its better to have damage reduction because taking 40%-60% less damage is 40%-60% less damage you have to heal as opposed to just 4k more hp to take damage that you can heal because it will require 4k more heals.

about the precision set having a higher attack floor, SR set is still better than a block set against a precision set since the crit factor is a straight reduction to crit rate, so like if u have 1.4k strike resist and they have 1.7k crit they will be hitting u with 300 crit, where as if they match your block then block is completely a dead stat. its kinda like msup vs mr, MR is useless once u break even but if u have 4k msup and they have 6k mb it still does something rather than nothing

6 minutes ago, Hinotori-KT said:

Both Block and Agility sets can have very varying amounts of phy def because in both cases you have several armor options to build those sets. For Block you have Boundless (anything from the 72 to the L80 version) / Arena / Blood Medal, while for Agility/SR you can find people wearing anything from 75 AP / Mythic Rank 1 / Ahserion / Boundless / Arena / Blood Medal and even officer gear, so you can find SR sets with 3.5k phy def while others chill at almost 6K, also influenced by manastone/essence choices, some people prefer to go with a hybrid Power/Agility build to supplement their Phy Def (since against most people you don't need to go full Agility/SR), while others stick to full Agi/SR depending on their resources/goal stats.

right but what i mean is phy def is a flat reduction so in terms of which set is better, if you use the same armor set creates a more even base its easier to tell how the numbers add up, the power mixed socketing is up to how people want their gear :P. punching in numbers for new calculation from what mooo posted btw

Edited by Ariana-DN

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with new info requires new calculations using 290 strike fortitude as a base (what i got from full 75ap mythic including accs) also noticed a few inconsistencies in my post above

for 1.8 crit multiplier weapons (bow,gs,pa,staff)
block set vs attack (no accuracy)
75% damage reduced 50% chance = 37.5% overall reduction

1.8 - (290 * 9 / 10000) = Crit Multiplier
1.8 - .261
=1.539
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.2695x damage average
block only reduces damage from crits
     base                crit multiplier
(1 * 0.625) * (1+ ((1.8 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0.5) * 0.625)
0.625 * (1 + (1.539 * 0.5) * 0.625
0.625 * (1 + 0.1684375)
0.625 * 1.1684375
0.7302734375
therefore 73.02734375% damage taken on average
1.2695 - 0.7302734375 = 0.5392265625

so 53.92265625% reduction on average

agility cap vs attack set = no crits 
  base                crit multiplier
(1 * 1) * (1+ ((1.8 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0) * 0.625)
therefore 100% damage taken on average
1.2695 - 1 = 0.2695
so 26.95% damage reduced

difference is 26.97265625% for 1.8x multiplier weapons

for 2.3 crit multiplier weapons (dagger)
block set vs attack (no accuracy)
75% damage reduced 50% chance = 37.5% overall reduction

2.3 - (290 * 9 / 10000) = Crit Multiplier
2.3 - .261
=2.039
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.5195x damage average
block only reduces damage from crits
     base                crit multiplier
(1 * 0.625) * (1 + ((2.3 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0.5) * 0.625)
0.625 * (1 + (1.039 * 0.5) * 0.625)
0.625 * (1 + 0.3246875)
0.8279296875
therefore 82.79296875% damage taken on average
1.5195 - 0.8279296875
=0.6915703125
so 69.15703125% damage reduced

agility cap vs attack set = no crit
    base                crit multiplier
=(1 * 1) * (1+ (2.3 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0) * 1)
=1 * 1
therefore 100% damage taken on average
1.5195 - 1 = 0.5195
so 51.95% reduction

so the difference in damage reduction is 17.20703125% for 2.3x multipler weapons

block set vs attack (no accuracy)
75% damage reduced 50% chance = 37.5% overall reduction

2.2 - (290 * 9 / 10000) = Crit Multiplier
2.2 - .261
=1.939
50% cap crit rate therefore the weapon would do 1.4695x damage average
block only reduces damage from crits
     base                crit multiplier
(1 * 0.625) * (1 + ((1.2 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0.5) * 0.625)
0.625 * (1 + (0.939 *0.5) * 0.625)
0.625 * 1.2934375
0.8083984375
therefore 80.83984375% average damage taken
1.4695 - 0.83984375
0.62965625

so 66.11015625% damage reduced

agility set vs attack set = no crits
 base                crit multiplier
(1 * 1) * (1 + ((1.2 - (290 * 9 / 10000)) * 0) * 1)
therefore 100% damage taken
1.4695 - 1
0.4695
so 46.95% damage reduced on average

difference is 19.16015625% damage reduction on average

key points

  • agility gives concentration
     
  • vs the 1.8 weapons even though there's  a huge 26.95% damage reduction difference you wont get rng knock down since no crits u can only get aether held and the 100% knockdowns skills so less ccs from physical classes
     
  • more strike fortitude makes agility set slightly worse compared to block in terms of damage reduced than the difference shown here (Crit Weapon Modifier of Opponent - (Player Strike Fortitude * 9 / 10000) = Crit modifier for Opponent) clerics may do their own math with their own strike fortitude.
     
  • agility gives parry (idk how relevant this would be for cleric) but if u account for parry with staff it would be 40% chance 40% reduced damage so 16% damage reduced on average at the cost of having a mace with heal boost on an agility set. so on swords the difference would be 3%, difference daggers 1%, and GS/Staff/PA/Bow 11% difference.
     
  • block is easier to stack against since you only need to reach the threshold ex if you have 4k block and they have 4k acc its a dead stat but strike resist if they have 1.8k crit and you have 1.4k its not wasted, they will be hitting u with 400 crit instead of 1.4k crit  + not many skills give crit as a stat vs things giving accuracy as a stat
     
  • agility gives a more constant stream of damage to heal as opposed to a chance to block (can get NeverLucky RubberDucky and get hit by like 4 hits in a row at 6% chance of happening) which is arguably easier to heal if you can out heal it.
     
  • hinotori also brought up a good point, SR set isn't primarily boundless, it can be in 75ap which gives silence/para resistance and extra pvp defense and pvp defense is more effective since it seems to work multiplicative with block ex if u have 20% pvp defense and they hit u with 100 damage you take 80 damage then if you block it u take 20 damage not 5 damage where as agility set you will always be taking 80 damage every hit of 100 dmg
Edited by Ariana-DN

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by there's more things that increase accuracy than block i mean things like word of instigation from having a support chanter , oath of accuracy for assasin and aiming for ranger granted not for all classes but some (or if they have a support chanter in party where as the only crit modifier ik of is from templar's courageous shield and chanters hit mantra which courageous shield increases crit and acc. so only hit mantra affects only agility set.
http://aion.wikia.com/wiki/Word_of_Instigation
http://aion.wikia.com/wiki/Oath_of_Accuracy_I
http://aiondatabase.net/en/skill/1053/
http://aiondatabase.net/en/skill/3048/
http://aiondatabase.net/en/skill/1899/

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thats for u to decide, all the factors to the 2 sets is up there :D just factor in your own templar block skills  vs other peoples acc

Edited by Ariana-DN

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