steel rake bans [Merged]

[Xion-KT]

5 minutes ago, MXJ said:

And for the 3000th time you've demonstrated you're incapable of comprehending that people lie. No one, not a single person, has come forward with any proof whatsoever that they were banned for turning in multiple repeats per run.

Even the people claiming they were wrongfully banned, and later unbanned, have failed to provide screenshots of their supposed conversations with supports that led to them being unbanned. 

If even the people who are claiming to have concrete proof that NCSoft made a mistake are refusing to present it, what makes you think it actually exists? Blind faith in humanity? And you say you're not naive. 

Oh you mean they let a thread stay up after people complained for 3 days that their threads were getting deleted every time they posted about the exploit? Imagine that. 

What complaints about threads being deleted? I see none of that. You keep saying we're naive and blinded and people lie but here's the thing, NCSOFT HAS LIED MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE PAST AND HAS SHOWN TO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Heck even the most recent daeva pass, the fact they weren't willing to provide refunds to those that wanted it from them changing up the rewards after the fact is unexcusable but instead of holding them accountable you're trying to let them get a pass because you think the people are lying. Honestly, yes I would believe the people more because it took so long for NCSoft to come out and actually address the issue and that was after they had already told people initially that the ban was final. Also NC West has repeatedly shown that they don't know how their own game works and doesn't actually play it and it's why people are trying to show them the difference between the two.

You keep moving the damn goal posts. First the players weren't putting enough effort into all this. Now they're not providing enough proof that NCSoft didn't unban them because they kept fighting for it and that they were banned for some other reason? What's next, the players should have applied to work at NCSoft so that way they can unban themselves?

[Malael-DN]

Hey all, 

Getting caught up  with the conversation. Support have been incredibly unprofessional with me.

I'm another caught up in the hairpins repeats ban. This is absolutely the only possible reason for my seven day ban, and I am certainly guilty of this "exploit"; however, the game's mechanics allow for us to turn in the quest twice per run, so why wouldn't we exercise this ability? This is exactly what I did a decade ago, along with everyone I played with - it's not cheating, it's using game mechanics to progress.

They wiped all of my kinah and caused me to lose 7 days on my subscription, which has now expired.

I shall not be resub to the game until they have made this right.

[Sylphrena]

Adding this because GM said to post this in order to gather evidence for the Development Team to act on and it is inappropriate? (GM's word) for GM to compensate for an erroneous ban. 

Summary: Was banned for as yet unknown reason but related to Steel Rake (SR). I did not perform any exploit and still am unsure of what the exploit in SR is.

From what I understand, kinah exploit is one that has been discussed, another being selling candies in the Beriti Cheese merchant in SR. I did not sell any candies in SR merchant (which hopefully should be evident in the log check by GM) and I did not participate in any kinah exploit (which can be easily investigated in my non existent kinah). GM did not specify why or what I did which led to the ban other than "Your account has been observed violating the User Agreement and the Rules of Conduct through the confirmed use of a known exploit in Steel Rake". 

My complaints:

1) Erroneous ban: There was no evidence presented for my alleged exploit. I do understand that NCSoft has no obligation to show us their investigation details but the lack of any information is frustrating.

2) I was unable to appeal through the submission of ticket. Submission of ticket requires logging in and the ban prevented this.

Writing an email to the appeal@support was largely ignored until my friend submitted a request through their own account. In addition, the replies from NCSoft following this was extremely slow and many of them being automated messages sent to everyone (e.g ban for the yet unexplained exploit in SR, they cannot provide details of their investigation etc).

The replies from appeal was also extremely disjointed, with many of them sent close to 2 days after my reply. This is frustrating as NCSoft assumed the issue is solved if we do not reply within 48 hours. This leaves me little to no time to pen another email without having to open another ticket. 

My request for refund for the remainder of the 3 month subscription I bought was ignored also ignored and the final reply I got from NCSoft says this:

 

"GM Crown (Aion)

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Aion Support Team.

I understand that it's frustrating to receive a 7-day suspension without doing any exploits. I'm also sorry to hear that you've been having a difficult time in this suspension period. 

However, please note that we do not provide compensation to players for this is deemed inappropriate. If you think that there should be compensation regarding this suspension, I would advise you to please post your feedback on our Official Forums as the Community Team gathers all information and forwards it to the Development Team for consideration."

They included the links to Forums here.

Thank you for understanding, and if there are other concerns, feel free to contact us again

Regards,

GM Crown

NCSOFT Support Team"

 

The part " I'm also sorry to hear that you've been having a difficult time in this suspension period" refers to the delay in replies not that I was having a breakdown during the suspension lol

Basically, I read "I understand that it's frustrating to receive a 7-day suspension without doing any exploits and however, please note that we do not provide compensation to players for this is deemed inappropriate" as sorry but not sorry. 

The only reasons I think I may have gotten caught in this ban is:

1) someone in party was performing the exploit and I benefited from it (kinah exploit?). The nuke option for everyone in the party is perhaps not the best way to go about this. Again my lack of kinah is probably the best argument against my ban. 

2) I ran 3 full SR within a day. Yes, I have a week off work and decided to no-life my life into the game but this doesn't warrant a ban does it? My gameplay is organic and did not make use of bots or any 3rd party software. I don't even use the Shugo console to get better FPS and FOV. 

 

So...please give me back my 7 days of Siel's Aura (and throw in SR breeches since I may possibly have gotten it in the week I was banned) and get rid of the warning on my account.

It's not so much the 1 week ban but rather the warning on my account that bugs me (and the SR pants not dropping).

Thanks.

 

Edit: They lock the topic on frontpage before I can submit it

 

 

 

[Alvie]

The correct method for a Dev team to handle an in game exploit, is not bans, but remove the exploit. They control the code, they can make it so you can't do multiple SR hairpin hand ins or whatever else they might consider an exploit. Bans are bad for game morale, and players should not pressure the GMs or devs to ban people for exploits, they should pressure to remove the ability to do the exploit.

[Wsnow]

15 minutes ago, Alvie said:

The correct method for a Dev team to handle an in game exploit, is not bans, but remove the exploit. They control the code, they can make it so you can't do multiple SR hairpin hand ins or whatever else they might consider an exploit. Bans are bad for game morale, and players should not pressure the GMs or devs to ban people for exploits, they should pressure to remove the ability to do the exploit.

@Kibbelzhas already stated the repeat quests are not classed as an exploit

 

https://forums.aiononline.com/topic/9333-steel-rake-bans/?do=findComment&comment=97552

 

[Eboy]

19 minutes ago, Alvie said:

The correct method for a Dev team to handle an in game exploit, is not bans, but remove the exploit. They control the code, they can make it so you can't do multiple SR hairpin hand ins or whatever else they might consider an exploit. Bans are bad for game morale, and players should not pressure the GMs or devs to ban people for exploits, they should pressure to remove the ability to do the exploit.

Please stay on topic.

[Wsnow]

I also believe that the players that was banned wrongly should have compensation for the loss of time playing, and the loss of any paid for time, and the mark taken of there accounts. 

it would also be good so that anyone that believed players was banned rightfully for NCsoft to state some players was  wrongfully banned due to a mistake while doing the repeat quests this clears players names. 

 

[Alvie]

58 minutes ago, Wsnow said:

@Kibbelzhas already stated the repeat quests are not classed as an exploit

 

https://forums.aiononline.com/topic/9333-steel-rake-bans/?do=findComment&comment=97552

 

You are missing my point altogether.

There should not be bans for exploits, I don't care about the specific case, or circumstance arguments pertaining  to SR, of which the hair pin hand in was a mere side effect.

 

[Wsnow]

31 minutes ago, Alvie said:

You are missing my point altogether.

There should not be bans for exploits, I don't care about the specific case, or circumstance arguments pertaining  to SR, of which the hair pin hand in was a mere side effect.

 

I believe you can look at this 2 ways:

1. yes its the companies job to fix the issue that I believe we all believe in.

2. any good player would not use an exploit to benefit knowing it is wrong.  

But lets keep this topic on the right path its not what they should have done, its what should be done to fix the mistake that was made with the banned players. 

[Amarah-KT]

providing the players a place to compile their information in ONE place.  There is more,  but do you care?  Like ACTUALLY care?  Or are you just looking to cherry pick incidents to solidify your opinion?

 

[MXJ]

12 minutes ago, Amarah-KT said:

providing the players a place to compile their information in ONE place.  There is more,  but do you care?  Like ACTUALLY care?  Or are you just looking to cherry pick incidents to solidify your opinion?

Okay, and that's fair. Players should have a place they can provide any information relevant to their ban.

The point still remains though, that not a single person has come forward with any credible evidence suggesting their ban was erroneous, or acknowledged to be erroneous by support. People assumed they were banned for turning in multiple repeats, Kibbelz confirmed twice that wasn't the case.

That's why I asked what are you actually doing. We're no closer to having any evidence now than we were 100 comments ago in the last thread. I want to clarify that I am looking for the truth. If people were legitimately erroneously banned then that's nyerked up, but right now all I see is people claiming they were. Claims and the truth are not always the same thing. I also understand it's difficult to provide any evidence in a situation like this, especially when NCSoft won't tell you exactly what it was you were banned for.

If you were banned:

- Did you do anything differently in the final days leading up to your ban?
- Did you possibly mistakenly exceed your daily sell limit by selling items to the peddler(s) inside Steel Rake?
- Did you see anything that seemed suspicious, but was maybe explained away by someone you ran with?
- How many times did you run SR?
- How long after your last SR run did you get banned?

The answers to questions like these are the evidence that will lend credence to the claims that people were erroneously banned, not stating repeatedly "I just turned in multiple repeats and got banned for it."

[MXJ]

NCSoft might be lying when they say "No one was banned for turning in multiple repeats per run" but they don't really have anything to gain by doing so (they actually have a lot to lose.) Plus, if they are lying then we'll never have a resolution for this anyway, so it's better to just assume they're telling the truth and try to figure out what else could be going on here.

[Asy]

Hi,

Responding here because i am in the exact same situation, except NCsoft havnt gave me any answer at all, all i get to all of my tickets (Big amount of mails i sent huh) is the same kind of automatic respond like ''thank you for your interest in our investigating methode'' 

They are not capable of giving me any proof of ''guilt'' because there is not, i have Never exploit , if someone in my group did while doing a quest run i am not responsible, nor am i even aware of it, i didnt even know there was a kinah exploit in SR before people talk about it on the forum. 

I keep sending tickets, at first i hoped to get atleast an apologie for how Bad i was treated, now i Hope they will DO something as a compensation because this is truly a lack of repsect to treat players this way.....

I have not relogged in the game since i was banned, i feel like this would be disrespecting myself. Idk that's nyerked up.

[Amarah-KT]

the players havent been provided with actual evidence.   Most of the tickets say generic responses.  They have shared those.  Why is that not good enough for you??   With the number of poorly handled situations NC has had LEADING UP TO THIS..   perhaps you should explain to the class why all of these players professing their honesty..  are not being honest..  in your opinion.  what evidence do YOU have to support NC in this?  and with a decision based on what..  your good faith?

 

You do understand that an account ban means ban in classic= ban in retail right?  its all account.   I wasnt one of the people banned.  seeing this.  the scope of this.  its unacceptable to have years of progress in jeopardy over the companys mistake.  

unacceptable

[MXJ]

One more thing I would like to add having worked customer service before:

Stop spamming tickets. Updating your ticket every day or so is fine if you haven't gotten a response. Responding to them whenever they respond to you is fine.

Submitting a new ticket every day just slows them down. Responding every 30 minutes just slows them down. Making alt accounts to submit more and more tickets just slows them down.

The fastest way to get a response is to submit one ticket, and just wait.  

[MXJ]

2 minutes ago, Amarah-KT said:

perhaps you should explain to the class why all of these players professing their honesty..  are not being honest..  in your opinion.

I already addressed this in the last thread. People lie when they get caught.

Someone caught cheating only has something to gain by claiming they didn't cheat, and the company (NCSoft in this case) only has something to lose by banning someone if they didn't actually cheat. It doesn't make sense for NCSoft to choose this hill to die on if people were legitimately erroneously banned.

[Amarah-KT]

Youre acting like this is 5 or 10 people spamming their inbox every 30 mins.   This is more like 100-200 players sending an initial ticket and a once a daily follow up.  Im seriously feeling like you dont understand the extent of ths.   Youre saying ALL of these people are lying,  yet you helped lock a thread for people to give the community a more clear picture.

Everyone knows someone who was banned.  youre calling all of them liars?  Im done with you.  Be helpful or go away.

[Asy]

-Did you do anything differently in the final days leading up to your ban?

No , went in a quest only group , turned a few quest up to lahulahu, then left. 

-Did you possibly mistakenly exceed your daily sell limit by selling items to the peddler(s) inside Steel Rake?

I sell couple items to the npc to prevent my inventory to get full during a run , i've Never reached any limite in my whole Aion experience and was not even aware this npc could be exploited.

-Did you see anything that seemed suspicious, but was maybe explained away by someone you ran with?

No

- How many times did you run SR?

I did not keep a count but there was 3 hairpin quest left to repeat so.. maybe around 15 Time counting the runs i did not turn any quest.

-How long after your last SR run did you get banned?

I don't remember it was long Time ago now but probably within 24h. 

 

There. Will this make any difference ? I dont think so, this is just my words , this is no proof. 

Yet all i got to my tickets was automatic responds, nobody asked me any type of questions to ACTUALY investigate on the issue. 

I dont keep logs from the game, i would not have any way to keep logs from the game, i dont Stream my game, this is ncsoft's job to deal with our logs, so what do we do? 

 

 

 

 

 

[MXJ]

1 minute ago, Amarah-KT said:

Youre acting like this is 5 or 10 people spamming their inbox every 30 mins. 

I didn't say that. There are however people in the other thread stating they or people they know have been spamming tickets on new accounts. Responding repeatedly to the automated messages refusing to wait for their ticket to be reviewed. In fact, the very first person to respond to it made a thread on Reddit talking about how they were going to keep responding to their ticket until they got a human response. 

That coupled with the volume of tickets would make it impossible for any company to resolve in a timely manner. 

4 minutes ago, Amarah-KT said:

Youre saying ALL of these people are lying

Again, no I didn't. I said that no one has provided any evidence they were erroneously banned, or any information relevant to their bans beyond "THIS IS WHAT SUPPORT SAID. I DIDN'T CHEAT I SWEAR." 

5 minutes ago, Amarah-KT said:

Everyone knows someone who was banned.  

I don't. No one in my legion does. (We've had extensive discussions on this subject over the past few weeks.) 

_____

Also, take note. I'm taking the time to respond to every question. I'm not pretending like you're the bad guy for believing in people's innocence, even if it is naive. You however are responding with hostility in every message because I had the audacity to ask someone "What happened before you got banned" and expected more as a response than just "I TURNED IN MULTIPLE REPEATS AND GOT BANNED." 

[Asy]

One thing, 

What is the point to keep making tickets and post on the forum to point out the fact that we have been erroneously banned if we are guilty of anything ? 

I'm pretty Sure people exploiting, cheating, boting, or using third party programs are well aware of what they're doing and the risk of doing it. I bet most of them got their 7 days ban and went back on the game , they probably didnt make tickets, and they're certainly back on the game instead or wasting their time trying to make a point in a topic like this on a forum because their tickets was not properly treated , like we do. 

I would rather be on my favorite game, playing my favorite class, having fun with my friends instead of wasting my time here trying to get justice because i feel to disrespected to log back in the game.

[Airashi]

After the response given out by NCwest and the consequent locking of the thread, the SR ban wave still remains a hot topic. The locking of the thread was an attempt to take the heat off NCwest, but this only serves to fuel the anger and resentment towards the company.

NCwest are probably totally unaware of this, but the majority of Aion classic players are returning veterans who enjoyed the game during its glory days. These players know the game mechanics better than most and the fact that NCwest are trying to insult our intelligence through miscommunication, mismanagement and ill-disguised cover-ups will simply not end well for them, as we can simply see through this. The current playerbase came back to the game to support the game and catch up with old friends for nostalgic, but NCwest have decided to rip away the enjoyment from the innocent players, who have kept their noses clean since the Classic launch. Another fact is, this game will NOT attract new players, and at this point the retention of existing players should be the main priority.

In the initial periods of the banwave, the innocent players were bewildered with the decision. This transitioned to anger and frustration as it was clear that matter was poorly justfied, poorly executed, and was a poor attempt to cover up. With the final response by NCwest and subsequent locking of the SR ban thread, players are now resentful towards the company. Those innocent players caught up in the ban wave have felt scammed by the company, and are now expressing their firm intention to seek financial retribution to "scam" back the company, just to square up the ledger.

When innocent players are falsely accused of something, banned and having warning infringements placed on their account, its very reasonable to expect a player to defend themselves and fight back tenaciously.

Don't just give a cookie cutter response filled with crocodile tears and expect us to lay down and cop it.

 

 

[yyyyy]

1 hour ago, Amarah-KT said:

Youre acting like this is 5 or 10 people spamming their inbox every 30 mins.   This is more like 100-200 players sending an initial ticket and a once a daily follow up.  Im seriously feeling like you dont understand the extent of ths.   Youre saying ALL of these people are lying,  yet you helped lock a thread for people to give the community a more clear picture.

Everyone knows someone who was banned.  youre calling all of them liars?  Im done with you.  Be helpful or go away.

I don't know a single person who was banned and not a single person in my legion (and friends) was banned. People in my legion were even running the SR repeat quest and no one got banned. Pretty sure at this point it's safe to say anyone who is banned was actually hacking and botting SR entry quest or exploiting the vendor.

it's the internet and people lie about the reasons they got banned. Nothing new.

[Alvie]

38 minutes ago, Airashi said:

After the response given out by NCwest and the consequent locking of the thread, the SR ban wave still remains a hot topic. The locking of the thread was an attempt to take the heat off NCwest, but this only serves to fuel the anger and resentment towards the company.

...

 

 

Let me quote the relevant portion of the code of conduct you agreed to:

 

"22. Any public discussion of disciplinary action or moderation is not allowed"...

[Airashi]

28 minutes ago, Alvie said:

"22. Any public discussion of disciplinary action or moderation is not allowed"...

Righto, they expect us to cop it and shut up?

[Airashi]

1 hour ago, yyyyy said:

I don't know a single person who was banned and not a single person in my legion (and friends) was banned. People in my legion were even running the SR repeat quest and no one got banned. Pretty sure at this point it's safe to say anyone who is banned was actually hacking and botting SR entry quest or exploiting the vendor.

Did they kill the kinah treasure chest on 2nd floor ledge above madam borakiki and loot it from below?