Clear the air. SR bans.

[Sab]

I felt it necessary to explain to some people who didn’t seem to understand what took place in SR, and that their misunderstandings have led them to believe Staff are incompetent when handing out bans and punishments.

People are using the logic “I know several innocent people who were banned during the SR Exploit Ban Wave who never participated in the kinah chest hack.”

I always interject - “yes, but were they abusing the looting mechanics of hats or wines to enable them to carry more than the allotted amount?”.

Straight from the TOS, and Aion Rules of Conduct (which you all agree to every single time you log in):

“You will not exploit any bug in Aion and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Aion.”

Even though they were not participating in one exploit, they were participating in the other, and while investigating SR the additional exploit was brought to their attention.

 

This being said, I feel as though the players punished for AP trading are 100% guilty. Although the staff here is pretty terrible at running events, and for the most part communication, they do not have a history of wrongfully banning players. 
 

My 2¢

[Neferupito]

2 minutes ago, Sab said:

“You will not exploit any bug in Aion and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Aion.”

Even though they were not participating in one exploit, they were participating in the other, and while investigating SR the additional exploit was brought to their attention.

You can ban all players who're doing sulfur and siel's rep then.

[Knk]

36 minutes ago, Sab said:

I felt it necessary to explain to some people who didn’t seem to understand what took place in SR, and that their misunderstandings have led them to believe Staff are incompetent when handing out bans and punishments.

People are using the logic “I know several innocent people who were banned during the SR Exploit Ban Wave who never participated in the kinah chest hack.”

I always interject - “yes, but were they abusing the looting mechanics of hats or wines to enable them to carry more than the allotted amount?”.

Straight from the TOS, and Aion Rules of Conduct (which you all agree to every single time you log in):

“You will not exploit any bug in Aion and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Aion.”

Even though they were not participating in one exploit, they were participating in the other, and while investigating SR the additional exploit was brought to their attention.

 

This being said, I feel as though the players punished for AP trading are 100% guilty. Although the staff here is pretty terrible at running events, and for the most part communication, they do not have a history of wrongfully banning players. 
 

My 2¢

That would have been a interesting theory IF @Kibbelz had not said that doing SR repeatables more than once per run was not considered an offense. You can search the forums if you want.

[DevilNefilims-DN]

1 hour ago, Neferupito said:

You can ban all players who're doing sulfur and siel's rep then.

Don't forget the ones that are using transf candies to craft faster, or the ppl that uses third party programs like exitlag, dps meters,  and  a lot more, so basicly 99% of the population i guess

i have some friends that got ban for ap trading, i can't trust on em when they say they are innocent but i can't trust on ncsoft aswel so, its a dead point

[Arhangelos]

You can also ban people who enter an instance, forget they didn't buy potions, get out, buy potions and enter the instance in their previous entry. Everything is an abuse.

There was a time that Gelk was again top map (before 6.0) and there were some infinite repeatables on some mobs, when you got 10 Q items the mobs stopped dropping it, but if you had 9 Q items and you killed 11 without looting them they would all have a Q item so you could loot all 11 for a total of 9+11 = 20 Q items, so when you went back you could give the quest two times.

It is called knowing the game and playing smart.

[Sab]

2 hours ago, Neferupito said:

You can ban all players who're doing sulfur and siel's rep then.

I agree that it’s a bannable offense, however I’m not in charge of anything and have no control over which areas they feel like enforcing. Ask anyone who knows me, I don’t support any exploits or shortcuts.

1 hour ago, Knk said:

That would have been a interesting theory IF @Kibbelz had not said that doing SR repeatables more than once per run was not considered an offense. You can search the forums if you want.

It’s against the rules by definition, doesn’t mean they are enforcing it over something minor I suppose.

I’m not convinced people were wrongfully punished. It’s more likely that people lie.

26 minutes ago, Arhangelos said:

You can also ban people who enter an instance, forget they didn't buy potions, get out, buy potions and enter the instance in their previous entry. Everything is an abuse.

There was a time that Gelk was again top map (before 6.0) and there were some infinite repeatables on some mobs, when you got 10 Q items the mobs stopped dropping it, but if you had 9 Q items and you killed 11 without looting them they would all have a Q item so you could loot all 11 for a total of 9+11 = 20 Q items, so when you went back you could give the quest two times.

It is called knowing the game and playing smart.

By definition that is utilizing a mechanic in a way it wasn’t intended. I’m not saying it should be punishable, but I won’t be naive and pretend it’s not an exploit.

[Sab]

1 hour ago, DevilNefilims-DN said:

Don't forget the ones that are using transf candies to craft faster, or the ppl that uses third party programs like exitlag, dps meters,  and  a lot more, so basicly 99% of the population i guess

i have some friends that got ban for ap trading, i can't trust on em when they say they are innocent but i can't trust on ncsoft aswel so, its a dead point

Candies to skip crafting animations is comparable to weaving skills to cancel auto attack animations. There is a priority of operations and I think that one just conveniently lines up. Being able to craft while in a form that doesn’t allow animations could possibly be considered an exploit (I’m not an expert). 
 

Why is everyone coming at me sideways as if I support any or all other exploits? Lol. 
 

For what it’s worth, I don’t craft with candies, and I don’t use third party programs that interfere with game files, or that give me any sort of advantage. 
 

I do run a DPS meter, MyAion to be exact. Network based. Merely observes and reports. Recording damage dealt, and more importantly identifying animation hackers. As far as I know it’s completely legal. It’s widely accepted.

https://forum.aion.gameforge.com/forum/thread/2126-myaion-dps-meter/?pageNo=1

 

As for it’s technical legality, I’d quote the rules of conduct again:

 

‘You may not use any third-party program (such as a "bot") in order to automate gameplay functions, including playing, chatting, interacting or gathering items within Aion.’

Since it doesn’t do any of those things, it’s good, no?

[Sab]

2 hours ago, Knk said:

That would have been a interesting theory IF @Kibbelz had not said that doing SR repeatables more than once per run was not considered an offense. You can search the forums if you want.

You sure about that? This is from Kibblez, it was also explained in responses to support tickets.

“Just to close out this topic with everyone - there are no issues we have been able to identify with the execution of this ban wave.

While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance repeatedly (often dozens of times) to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.

We would encourage all users to review our User Agreement here for further information; specifically Section 3 which relates to prohibited conduct.”

[Aaabatery]

If you do SR repeatables you don't  re-enter "often dozens of times". Mid runs you can turn-in twice (24 hats), so it's one re-enter. If you do Lower-Upper in sequence you can get about 30 ledgers, it's also one or two re-enter.

That means a full SR run you re-enter like at max 4 times. So yeah if there was someone re-entering "often dozens of times" something fishy was happening.

[Arhangelos]

1 hour ago, Sab said:

Why is everyone coming at me sideways as if I support any or all other exploits? Lol.

Because it seems like people are walking on egg shells and they are at NCWest's disposal when they are trying to fix one thing and they end up breakin two things instead. They have given up on this game long time ago and whenever they deal with it they end up messing more.

There used to be people taking advantage of terrain to do aoe on mobs while jumping on stairs (before mobs could literally defy the laws of gravity or walls). Then they added a rule "don't take advantage of terrain"... what is fun if you do not play the game as it is.

Hack is one thing, a bug exploit is another, knowing how to play the game smarter is a totally different thing.

~~~

When people abused the EC kick thing to get free entries that was an exploit and acknowledged as one, NCWest came forward and told people it was an abuse and they would fix it and they said players should stop using it and many people didn't listen. Whoever didn't stop ended up getting a ban and this was the right way to handle it.

But you cannot pull the rug under people's feet because the mechanics allow for a smart gameplay and then they come up and say "oh that is regarded an abuse". They could at least address those things when found and let people know what is allowed and what not.

I am talking about SR repeating quests.

[Sab]

13 minutes ago, Arhangelos said:

Because it seems like people are walking on egg shells and they are at NCWest's disposal when they are trying to fix one thing and they end up breakin two things instead. They have given up on this game long time ago and whenever they deal with it they end up messing more.

There used to be people taking advantage of terrain to do aoe on mobs while jumping on stairs (before mobs could literally defy the laws of gravity or walls). Then they added a rule "don't take advantage of terrain"... what is fun if you do not play the game as it is.

Hack is one thing, a bug exploit is another, knowing how to play the game smarter is a totally different thing.

~~~

When people abused the EC kick thing to get free entries that was an exploit and acknowledged as one, NCWest came forward and told people it was an abuse and they would fix it and they said players should stop using it and many people didn't listen. Whoever didn't stop ended up getting a ban and this was the right way to handle it.

But you cannot pull the rug under people's feet because the mechanics allow for a smart gameplay and then they come up and say "oh that is regarded an abuse". They could at least address those things when found and let people know what is allowed and what not.

I am talking about SR repeating quests.

Well said. They can’t expect everyone to read every single word of the TOS and Code of Conduct and successfully interpret everything exactly as intended. 
 

I’m just here to broaden the spotlight and explain to people that exploits are Bannable, no matter how silly or small. We rely on the staff to use their judgment as far as which exploits are worth enforcing punishments on.

38 minutes ago, Aaabatery said:

If you do SR repeatables you don't  re-enter "often dozens of times". Mid runs you can turn-in twice (24 hats), so it's one re-enter. If you do Lower-Upper in sequence you can get about 30 ledgers, it's also one or two re-enter.

That means a full SR run you re-enter like at max 4 times. So yeah if there was someone re-entering "often dozens of times" something fishy was happening.

Valid concept. Most people I know only did 2-3 turn ins per run. If they stand by their assessment of 10+  Entries; that’s peculiar for sure.

[Aaabatery]

I mean, we all know what is and what's not an exploit or game breaking rules. This game is 12 years old. We know SR repeatables are not an exploit. We know SR entry quest chest is an exploit. We know the Bakarma fight in the cave back in 2009 was not an exploit. We know the Bakarma fight in the lava back in 2009 was an exploit. We know that AP trading is an exploit. All this is not new. And know what else is not new and I bet will happen again?

I remember back in the time some people found a way to crash a dredge in an aetheric field on a fort. What happened is that the field killed the dredge, which awarded uber humongous amounts of AP, medals and kinah to the legion, members and participants. Like, people literally bought EVERYTHING in the broker. This was old Azphel server. People were joking like trading 1 trillion kinah and 5k medals, everything. NC had to do a rollback on the server and disable dredge until the bug was fixed.

 

The problem now in 2021 is that NCW team that runs Aion Classic has no clue about Aion Classic. They never played Aion, doesn't know the history, what is and what is not a bug/exploit. Which I find outrageous because they have literally 12 years of bugs, fixes and backlogs to look at, besides having KR team that can answer any question with an e-mail or a Zoom meeting.

 

Face it people, Aion retail is dead, Aion Classic is the last money milk, NCW will not do a thing. Don't keep subbing.

[Knk]

2 hours ago, Sab said:

It’s against the rules by definition, doesn’t mean they are enforcing it over something minor I suppose.

I’m not convinced people were wrongfully punished. It’s more likely that people lie.

 

2 hours ago, Sab said:

You sure about that? This is from Kibblez, it was also explained in responses to support tickets.

“Just to close out this topic with everyone - there are no issues we have been able to identify with the execution of this ban wave.

While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance repeatedly (often dozens of times) to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.

We would encourage all users to review our User Agreement here for further information; specifically Section 3 which relates to prohibited conduct.”

It wasn't hard to find honestly:

 

[Makisekurisu]

is player putting kinah on my inventory without trade, considered a bug exploit ? just to know 

[Stormwing]

I like Steel Rake. Atleast I have Mates in there.

For me the main issue has always been the communication. The way it happens or does not happen, the lack of details and accuracy, the waiting time for reactions on bugged events, as well as the frequency. It starts with the weekly maintenance notes, over to the event descprition, further to the patch notes ending with the special occassions like bans, exploits and bugs. The game provides such a nice functionality with ingame surveys to inform people about bugged events, patchnotes and important information yet it gets used so rarely.

@Aaabatery:
Not to disproof your point, yet one can turn in more doing the special spawn quests, using the keys to the upper deck and by simply starting out with one pouch or hairpin missing. (Dont take this too seriously.

@Aaabatery:
You could argue that why does the dredgion provide abyss points if it was not meant to be killed. (Dont take this too seriously as well).

[Splinter]

12 hours ago, Makisekurisu said:

is player putting kinah on my inventory without trade, considered a bug exploit ? just to know 

If enough people complain about it, it can be a bannable offense.

[Squid]

22 hours ago, Sab said:

This being said, I feel as though the players punished for AP trading are 100% guilty. Although the staff here is pretty terrible at running events, and for the most part communication, they do not have a history of wrongfully banning players.

Honestly, The only person i can believe was wrongfully banned was E-girl. While they probably did AP trade as well(maybe it was just to get their godstone) i always saw them in the abyss ganking OR farming the 200 repeat quests.

No other player was as active as they were in the abyss from my view. While i am sure people are like LOL you are trying to protect your friend i legitimately do not even know E-girl(or played with them from other games). They are an asmo i am an elyos and while it was annoying AF getting killed by them over and over in the abyss where ever i went i can say that they were out there day in day out being super active doing anything AP related.

Again not defending them but no one else could of earned as much AP as they did based on their performance in the abyss and how dedicated they were to progressing.

22 hours ago, Neferupito said:

You can ban all players who're doing sulfur and siel's rep then.

Yea players should of been banned for this because it is the same thing, However no one complained about it so no one got banned for it. That is the difference everyone was upset with the SR kinah exploit they looked in to everything to do with SR while due to their being no complaints about the turn in exploit there will be nothing done about it.

[Sab]

17 hours ago, Knk said:

 

It wasn't hard to find honestly:

 

I’m confused. Are you now agreeing that it is in fact bannable? I thought you said people weren’t getting banned for multiple turn ins? It’s very clearly considered an offense. Clarification needed.

[Sab]

My intent behind this post was to explain tl people that the SR bans were justifiable, even if they didn’t participate in the primary Exploit investigated, and I felt it was important to shed some light on because people were using the innocently banned in SR Argument to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the AP trading punishments.

 

I do not support nor condone the use or abuse of any bug/exploit. Rome wasn’t built in a day; enjoy the game at its natural pace.

[Jake-DN]

People weren't banned because of multiple turn ins in SR. This was widely known. What had happened is Kibblez made a generic post and people took it and ran with it, going off the only thing it could be was doing multiple turn ins.

Kibblez even came forward to confirm that multiple turn ins was not the issue.

 

There were (and still are) several genuine exploits in SR. The two main ones that got people banned was the entry quest chest hacking, and the wines quest NPC that let's you sell items (kinah limit was not in place for this NPC, you can buy 1000 Candies and sell 1000 Candies in one stop). 

If they didn't load up some hacks to noclip and run through for the entry quest, they did the latter. 

 

It could be possible some people sold past their daily kinah limit accidently and were flagged. Who knows, but 2 things are for sure:

 

1) Multiple Turn ins had nothing to do with SR bans

2) Those saying they're innocent, largely aren't. 

 

You'd be surprised just who is doing what.

 

 

[Knk]

29 minutes ago, Sab said:

I’m confused. Are you now agreeing that it is in fact bannable? I thought you said people weren’t getting banned for multiple turn ins? It’s very clearly considered an offense. Clarification needed.

Did you even click and read what Kibbelz wrote? Seems very clear to me that multiple turn ins is not an offense.

[Sab]

41 minutes ago, Knk said:

Did you even click and read what Kibbelz wrote? Seems very clear to me that multiple turn ins is not an offense.

Did you?

 

“there are no issues we have been able to identify with the execution of this ban wave.”

The bans were deliberate. Not automated. Not accidental.

“While we can empathize with anyone who many have engaged in this behavior unwittingly at the direction of others, knowingly re-entering a quest instance dozens of times of times to obtain much higher amounts of rewards than intended is neither sustainable, nor acceptable.”

Neither Sustainable nor acceptable 

 

I’m not trying to be argumentative, what am I missing here? (I use the forums on my phone so I don’t always see everything lol).

 

EDIT: Okay so I found where he said the multiple entries aren’t the exploit. However not looting the last corpse to over-stack items is. *shrug*  I never once said that entering multiple times was the bannable offense btw. If a quest item is supposed to cap at 10/10, deliberating not looting corpses at 9/10 and killing 11 more is an unintended side affect of the loot system, at least as far as I can tell.

57 minutes ago, Jake-DN said:

People weren't banned because of multiple turn ins in SR. This was widely known. What had happened is Kibblez made a generic post and people took it and ran with it, going off the only thing it could be was doing multiple turn ins.

Kibblez even came forward to confirm that multiple turn ins was not the issue.

 

There were (and still are) several genuine exploits in SR. The two main ones that got people banned was the entry quest chest hacking, and the wines quest NPC that let's you sell items (kinah limit was not in place for this NPC, you can buy 1000 Candies and sell 1000 Candies in one stop). 

If they didn't load up some hacks to noclip and run through for the entry quest, they did the latter. 

 

It could be possible some people sold past their daily kinah limit accidently and were flagged. Who knows, but 2 things are for sure:

 

1) Multiple Turn ins had nothing to do with SR bans

2) Those saying they're innocent, largely aren't. 

 

You'd be surprised just who is doing what.

 

 

Can you please point me to where Kibblez said that?  I seem to be finding the exact opposite. 
 

sned halp 

 

EDIT: See above edit.

[Jake-DN]

People aren't getting banned for doing that. No one has been banned for that so far. Stop continuing to spread that misinformation. 

[Knk]

I have literally linked you the post... You didn't even read what I linked to answer my post!

Like, what?! Have at it mate. I'm done here.

Believe whatever you want to! Peace.

[Sab]

4 minutes ago, Knk said:

I have literally linked you the post... You didn't even read what I linked to answer my post!

Like, what?! Have at it mate. I'm done here.

Believe whatever you want to! Peace.

Have you read my recent edit? You’re arguing re-entires. I’m arguing the looting exploit. When I touched the link on my phone it was resetting me to the beginning of the thread, and the paragraph I’ve cited 2-3 times now. I’m not trying to “believe” anything. You’re just really bad at continual discourse apparently.

 

Kibblez said two things:

1) Obtaining higher amounts of an item by abusing a loot mechanic is unacceptable. (This is what I’m emphasizing as a possible reason for the bans.)

2) Entering the same instance multiple times is not the issue. (This is where you’re mentally stuck.)

19 minutes ago, Jake-DN said:

People aren't getting banned for doing that. No one has been banned for that so far. Stop continuing to spread that misinformation. 

We don’t know for certain. By process of elimination we know it’s not as a result of re-entering the instance and that’s the extent of our knowledge. I’m just highlighting what the rules say, and that there are additional exploits other than the kinah chest.