Forcing players to trade through the broker.

[Supvolcom-DN]

@Cyan

I would LOVE to know the reasoning behind making almost everything important untradeable yet available to be sold on broker. Community and player interaction is a major part of MMO's and that includes sharing items and trading with friends or random players.

A major problem currently flooding the broker rooms of Lakrum are broker snipers. Incase you don't play the game you're GMing or trying to ignore the problem, broker sniping is when players sit at the broker and refresh a search for "legendary" or "ultimate". When someone lists an item for a low amount of kinah for their friend/legionmate to buy, the sniper will see it listed first and buy it.

This is the only way to trade items like Kibrium or Guiding Stones. It has become such a problem that players are using scripts that automatically buy certain items that are sold at a certain price or lower. I myself just tried to put up 175 Ultimate Guiding Stones for a legionmate to buy (I was going to help him level his crafting to 300) and they were sold milliseconds after I put them up. MILLISECONDS.

We tried this again with 1 stone just to see and again the same result.

So please @Cyan if theres any actual thought that went into this no-trading policy, I would really like to know.

[Shirayuki-DN]

A smarter way of doing things is to sell said items at the usual price.

Then you give your legion mate the kinah back by having your legion mate selling something else problem solved.

Yes 13.4% tax in total I know.

Trading through broker is not intended but players work around the system.

Hence it is upon us ourselves to ensure our work around works.

No trading isn't a new concept, it is present even in games like black desert online.

Side note yeah I also want to know why Aion shifted into this no-trading policy.

[Supvolcom-DN]

14 minutes ago, Shirayuki-DN said:

A smarter way of doing things is to sell said items at the usual price.

Then you give your legion mate the kinah back by having your legion mate selling something else problem solved.

Yes 13.4% tax in total I know.

Trading through broker is not intended but players work around the system.

Hence it is upon us ourselves to ensure our work around works.

No trading isn't a new concept, it is present even in games like black desert online.

Side note yeah I also want to know why Aion shifted into this no-trading policy.

The tax is why people aren't doing what you suggested. I guess I'll have to deal with it, but with a game like this, trading should just be enabled like it was before.

[Shirayuki-DN]

2 minutes ago, Supvolcom-DN said:

The tax is why people aren't doing what you suggested. I guess I'll have to deal with it, but with a game like this, trading should just be enabled like it was before.

Well I mean if you prefer to be broker sniped then your call. Good day.

[Kailor-DN]

I agree, broker fees and taxes are INSANE. I'd quit shopping in my town if I had to pay 30% in just fees and taxes to shop there. NO WAY! 10% fee and 5-6% tax I can see, but as is, it's highway robbery.

Example: Alt is level 30, has only 600 kinah due to travel and food costs. I have main with 3 billion on it, want to get 10 mil to alt but, alt cannot afford to list anything on the broker to get the money and, I'd loose 30% of it in the transfer. That's a 300,000 Kinah loss - INSANE, not happening, NC Moneygrubber has gone mad. Alt is stranded, cannot afford to teleport to the next zone, must be deleted and try again but, same thing happens 9 of 10 times - no kinah to travel to the next quests.

[Revendreth-DN]

2 minutes ago, Kailor-DN said:

I agree, broker fees and taxes are INSANE. I'd quit shopping in my town if I had to pay 30% in just fees and taxes to shop there. NO WAY! 10% fee and 5-6% tax I can see, but as is, it's highway robbery.

Example: Alt is level 30, has only 600 kinah due to travel and food costs. I have main with 3 billion on it, want to get 10 mil to alt but, alt cannot afford to list anything on the broker to get the money and, I'd loose 30% of it in the transfer. That's a 300,000 Kinah loss - INSANE, not happening, NC Moneygrubber has gone mad. Alt is stranded, cannot afford to teleport to the next zone, must be deleted and try again but, same thing happens 9 of 10 times - no kinah to travel to the next quests.

Why are you wasting kinah in useless stuff like food while leveling? The one you got from quests should be enough.

My chanter just hit lv55 and has like 500k kinah, enough to list some random item at broker for ~10m to buy it with my main.

Also, stop crying "mUh 30% TaX iS sO eXpEnSiVe" we all know the real %.

 

I can imagine you like someone going into a casino and yell to gamblers how they "are stupid for play in thr casino" and wondering why you are kicked by security.

[Kailor-DN]

Fee PLUS TAX = Cost of selling = LOSS per sale and, that's roughly 30%. Quests don't give enough food, have to buy more or use those silly transformation pots, which I won't do. Why have a character creator if you're going to use transformations, just take whatever the game gives you, doesn't matter, you'll all look like puppies, clowns, rainbow penguins and, the Coca Cola bear all of the timne anyway, so who care what your character actually looks like?

Half the reason i like Aion is because you can crate good looking characters. Why in the world do they think we want to hide them under stupid cartoon costumes?

As for casinos, yes, it's a loosing game PERIOD, if you're playing thinking you'll win, you're nuts, the casinos don't have the cheap, luxury foods and fancy decor by letting you win-  they have it by taking your money on the games. Odds of winning are VERY low, like the odds of getting an ultimate transformation with a free contract - might happen to ONE in 100,000 people if that. You have a better chance of dying in a plane crash.

[MetaBlack-KT]

2 hours ago, Supvolcom-DN said:

@Cyan

I would LOVE to know the reasoning behind making almost everything important untradeable yet available to be sold on broker. Community and player interaction is a major part of MMO's and that includes sharing items and trading with friends or random players.

A major problem currently flooding the broker rooms of Lakrum are broker snipers. Incase you don't play the game you're GMing or trying to ignore the problem, broker sniping is when players sit at the broker and refresh a search for "legendary" or "ultimate". When someone lists an item for a low amount of kinah for their friend/legionmate to buy, the sniper will see it listed first and buy it.

This is the only way to trade items like Kibrium or Guiding Stones. It has become such a problem that players are using scripts that automatically buy certain items that are sold at a certain price or lower. I myself just tried to put up 175 Ultimate Guiding Stones for a legionmate to buy (I was going to help him level his crafting to 300) and they were sold milliseconds after I put them up. MILLISECONDS.

We tried this again with 1 stone just to see and again the same result.

So please @Cyan if theres any actual thought that went into this no-trading policy, I would really like to know.

Is it like a bot? You said they (snipers) do it automatically and very quickly? How does it work? Sucks, Xigncode was created against bots and hacks, in fact it only doesn't let us open Aion in Sandboxie and ISBox but hacks remain and while NCSOFT wanted "to stop bots" by disabling normal trading, in result it got MUCH more sinister kind of bots!  Isn't it very stupid??

[Shirayuki-DN]

1 hour ago, Kailor-DN said:

I agree, broker fees and taxes are INSANE. I'd quit shopping in my town if I had to pay 30% in just fees and taxes to shop there. NO WAY! 10% fee and 5-6% tax I can see, but as is, it's highway robbery.

Example: Alt is level 30, has only 600 kinah due to travel and food costs. I have main with 3 billion on it, want to get 10 mil to alt but, alt cannot afford to list anything on the broker to get the money and, I'd loose 30% of it in the transfer. That's a 300,000 Kinah loss - INSANE, not happening, NC Moneygrubber has gone mad. Alt is stranded, cannot afford to teleport to the next zone, must be deleted and try again but, same thing happens 9 of 10 times - no kinah to travel to the next quests.

Hey i'll just repeat what I said in another post here because your delusional thinking needs to stop. 

Hey bro, we have already given you evidence in the form of a picture (can't remember if it was in this thread) that you are taxed 2.2% on registering item and followed by 11.2% broker fee after selling the item and that adds up to a total of 13.4% loss of the total price of the item. Stop being delusional for heaven's sake. You can be a furry hater all you want but stop denying facts.

1 hour ago, Kailor-DN said:

Fee PLUS TAX = Cost of selling = LOSS per sale and, that's roughly 30%. Quests don't give enough food, have to buy more or use those silly transformation pots, which I won't do. Why have a character creator if you're going to use transformations, just take whatever the game gives you, doesn't matter, you'll all look like puppies, clowns, rainbow penguins and, the Coca Cola bear all of the timne anyway, so who care what your character actually looks like?

Half the reason i like Aion is because you can crate good looking characters. Why in the world do they think we want to hide them under stupid cartoon costumes?

As for casinos, yes, it's a loosing game PERIOD, if you're playing thinking you'll win, you're nuts, the casinos don't have the cheap, luxury foods and fancy decor by letting you win-  they have it by taking your money on the games. Odds of winning are VERY low, like the odds of getting an ultimate transformation with a free contract - might happen to ONE in 100,000 people if that. You have a better chance of dying in a plane crash.

And let me repeat yet again in case it hasn't sank in.

Hey bro, we have already given you evidence in the form of a picture (can't remember if it was in this thread) that you are taxed 2.2% on registering item and followed by 11.2% broker fee after selling the item and that adds up to a total of 13.4% loss of the total price of the item. Stop being delusional for heaven's sake. You can be a furry hater all you want but stop denying facts.

[Mirelium-KT]

oh my god! stop complaining about broker fees! There is a reason for that. And it's not that huge... well it is if you refuse to understand we are not in 5.8 anymore and you can't sell items for 1 bill or more anymore. Simply because the game doesn't generate that kind of amounts anymore. 
So before you complain about broker prices get that through your head and adjust to the current economy.  It's not that hard. There are many reasons i can understand if you complain but broker fees? really?

RIP common sense.

 

[Kailor-DN]

That's 2,545,164 Loss already and, that isn't including taxes that will be charged when the item is sold. Already that's 14.14% Add the taxes of 13.4% and, it's 27.54% Basically a 30% loss!

 

[Shirayuki-DN]

Do u even math.

FYI maybe the taxes are affected by something I don't know, but yea sure it isn't the exact same as 13.4% which I have mentioned. But by taking that number that you nicely circled in red ((2,120,976) + (424,188))/18,000,000 = 0.141398 which is 14.14% yes. I'm an asian from asia not murica so you can trust me. I don't know what is that shit your smoking but it sure is good if you can pull 13.4% out of no where and get 27.54%.

[Edmond-KT]

4 hours ago, Shirayuki-DN said:

Do u even math.

FYI maybe the taxes are affected by something I don't know, but yea sure it isn't the exact same as 13.4% which I have mentioned. But by taking that number that you nicely circled in red ((2,120,976) + (424,188))/18,000,000 = 0.141398 which is 14.14% yes. I'm an asian from asia not murica so you can trust me. I don't know what is that shit your smoking but it sure is good if you can pull 13.4% out of no where and get 27.54%.

+1, i don't know where are u getting that 27%

Also, to post opener, i believe the reasons are:

1. Reduce inflation
2. Prevent abusing by people doing 30 times an insta with different chars and trading all to main.

[Raiuken-KT]

What's wrong with doing something 30 times on different characters? It takes time to do, a lot of time, should you not be rewarded for time you spend in the game or something? All you do on this game is kill the same mobs over and over, why can't you do that with instances? I played all through 5.0 - 5.8 and prices didn't really change that much, in fact prices went down, omegas used to be 800kk each, then by the end of 5.8 they were a reasonable 100kk each. I don't see one good reason why they did the changes to the broker and no trading, and no account warehouse. It's a social game, but you can't even trade people anything. smh. Just like you have wings but can't fly anywhere,  LUL

[DevilNest-KT]

5 hours ago, Kailor-DN said:

That's 2,545,164 Loss already and, that isn't including taxes that will be charged when the item is sold. Already that's 14.14% Add the taxes of 13.4% and, it's 27.54% Basically a 30% loss!

 

It seems you got confused here.

424.188 is the kinah you have to pay to List that item in broker.

2.120.976 is the kinah substracted as Taxes/Fees only if you sell that item.

And that's it. Around 14% not 30% so stop spreading misinformation please.

[Lenalyn-DN]

It's obvious that Aion devs intended for most items to be untradable yet brokerable. It's also reasonable to assume that they expect many players to use the broker as a means to trade items amongst friends. This, combined with the removal of private shops and the increase in broker fees is clearly meant to be a massive Kinah sink for Aion. The numbers in the economy were too high, and NCSoft wanted to lower them; it kinda makes sense. Whether this forced change in economy is actually healthy for the game here in NA is up for debate.

[TehGoat-DN]

Aetherforging should be account wide.

Change my mind.

[Mirelium-KT]

Well let me try and break it down to you. the current system, where cannot trade kinah is the best way to stop the kinah sellers (haven't you noticed they are gone?). All the restriction on kinah are mainly for this reason. so bye bye kinah sellers bye bye bots. Which is what the community have asked since i can remember, going back to 3.x i think. So you can't complain that they finally have a fix to one of the longest complain the community had. Yes it's not perfect, but it's a fix non the less. Regarding broker snipping as you call it... well guess what, that's a double edged blade at this moment. Why? well because even if you buy it under priced you have 3 choices. 1 use it for yourself, which is totally legit and normal. 2 Sell it again trying to make some profit, which is not illegal, however can be in a immoral zone, but here you risk that the price you need to sell to make profit (considering the broker fees too) is to high for anyone to buy it. 3 you sell it to a friend/legion mate, which again is not illegal not that much immoral either in my opinion, and definitely you will lose some money here, because you will most likely sell it to your friend cheap (guessing that's the main reason you do it in the first place)

[Kailor-DN]

3 hours ago, DevilNest-KT said:

It seems you got confused here.

424.188 is the kinah you have to pay to List that item in broker.

2.120.976 is the kinah substracted as Taxes/Fees only if you sell that item.

And that's it. Around 14% not 30% so stop spreading misinformation please.

Math, already 14.14% to get the item on the broker, then add 13.4% TAX on sale, that's 27.54% LOSS, round to 30% loss so that 18000000 thing I wanted to sell would actually have to sell for 23400000 for me to net 18000000 out of it and that isn't happening. 

[Shirayuki-DN]

1 hour ago, Kailor-DN said:

Math, already 14.14% to get the item on the broker, then add 13.4% TAX on sale, that's 27.54% LOSS, round to 30% loss so that 18000000 thing I wanted to sell would actually have to sell for 23400000 for me to net 18000000 out of it and that isn't happening. 

U my friend, need to go to school.

Because even though tats how u think it works, clearly tats not how it works. Not only do u have a problem at math I think you have a problem at reading too.

[Kailor-DN]

Yes, everything you buy is sold at a price PLUS TAX, the seller pays sales tax. In life that's quarterly, in game it's when you collect what's left over after all of the fees and tax at the broker. You don't go to the store and buy a 1.00 item for 1.00, it's 1.06, 1.10, 1.04 whatever your tax is is added and, then the store has to pay that tax to the state and possibly county or city too depending on the laws. The broker does NOT add tax automatically into the price like registers at store do, so, as a seller you either add it manually or, eat the tax you will have to pay.

Put something on the broker for 1 kinah, it does not get listed as costing 100 Kinah, it isn't listed for sale at 113 Kinah, it's listed for sale at 100 Kinah, tax not added.

[Shirayuki-DN]

Give this guy a medal nuff said.

[Bastikan-DN]

3 hours ago, Kailor-DN said:

Math, already 14.14% to get the item on the broker, then add 13.4% TAX on sale, that's 27.54% LOSS, round to 30% loss so that 18000000 thing I wanted to sell would actually have to sell for 23400000 for me to net 18000000 out of it and that isn't happening. 

You're dumb.

[Capa-KT]

While I agree with broker fees existing for a reason, they are ridiculously high even as a counter-measure to listing items for 500M+, particularly in the case of items with high price variation.

3 hours ago, Mirelium-KT said:

Well let me try and break it down to you. the current system, where cannot trade kinah is the best way to stop the kinah sellers (haven't you noticed they are gone?). All the restriction on kinah are mainly for this reason. so bye bye kinah sellers bye bye bots. Which is what the community have asked since i can remember, going back to 3.x i think. So you can't complain that they finally have a fix to one of the longest complain the community had. Yes it's not perfect, but it's a fix non the less.

It's really not. You're messing up the kinah trade (as in, switching kinah from an alt to main, because for example my main's broker slots are full, so I want to sell extra items on an alt)(or yanno, I dropped a manastone on an alt and want to sell it there instead of getting sniped while attempting to trade it to my main through brokers for 1kinah) and trades/sales as simple "buy me a skin from BCM and meet me in front of Lakrum brokers so I can trade you the kinah for it". You literally can't buy skins for slightly cheaper than broker price, unless you're well-coordinated with the seller, because 1) the seller gets a fee so whatever advantage of "speed selling > kinah gotten" he gets is wasted into just broker fees 2) some guy that happens to be browsing the skin section by highest price first might just see it first, it's just that simply inconvenient and risky.

While, personally, I can manage my kinah well through main and alts because I have excess kinah from 5.8 and am not always broke, so I can juggle tradeable brokerable items back and forth to give my alts kinah, or my alts to give my main kinah from their cubic sales... It doesn't help with bots. Just look at the people listing stacks of 2k ancient stones for cheaper than everyone else. Just go outside of main town (and now, this might be different on KT-E or wherever you play, but this is the situation on KT-A since about a week), there's a bunch of ranger, gunner and chanter bots running around. They're level 80, sometimes transformation-less, with the campaign gear, and clearly not farming for mats to sell because they're low on kinah: everyone and their mother knows, by now, that the drop rate is much better on slightly harder mobs, like the ones on the north-west/north-east, and the whole center area. After selling their stack of guiding stones and manastones, they are left with a sizeable amount of kinah. Their main (or kinah selling account) lists an item for as high as the amount of kinah they have, and they buy it. Kinah transfer complete. Same thing with RMT.

Try again and tell me this is the perfect anti-bot system. They lose 13% of their earnings which is close to nothing for bots, can always farm for more and they never tire, but for humans farming, that's shooting yourself in the foot, wasting precious time into thin air, particularly if you're trying to resell the low drop rate, higher-value items like legendary and ultimate guiding stones. Luckily bots can't farm/sell highest-value items like Legendary/Ultimate Kibrium... yet. But they can farm certain ancient kibrium elites.

There's a very simple solution to botting and that's banning bots that get reported. My god, the effort ! Looking through bot reports and checking them in-game for 10min per day ?  A 30min per week maybe ? Hot damn. And then, increase drop rate so that normal humans can farm items for maybe 30min and get a very good amount of drops, because you do actually need thousands of guiding stones to craft and then get the amount of fragments you need to just make one legendary set (not even going to mention ultimate set), and that's mostly what botting is helping (botters) with, apart from RMT. The 100% drop buff was cool, while it lasted.

Quote

Regarding broker snipping as you call it... well guess what, that's a double edged blade at this moment. Why? well because even if you buy it under priced you have 3 choices. 1 use it for yourself, which is totally legit and normal. 2 Sell it again trying to make some profit, which is not illegal, however can be in a immoral zone, but here you risk that the price you need to sell to make profit (considering the broker fees too) is to high for anyone to buy it. 3 you sell it to a friend/legion mate, which again is not illegal not that much immoral either in my opinion, and definitely you will lose some money here, because you will most likely sell it to your friend cheap (guessing that's the main reason you do it in the first place)

Broker sniping is done through a script, by bots, not by people who are in front of their pc 24/7 browsing dozens of different items per second to check in case some clueless player put something up for 1 kinah. Not going to go into details to not make even more people get this script, but it's very, very fast and it wasn't there the first week or so of 6.2. Now however, crafting mats are sniped (at least on KT-A, I haven't checked other servers, but I heard others mention their crafting mat got sniped on other servers). It's not a double-edged blade, it's a full-blown profit to snipe items at 1kinah, resell them at the end of the day/week (whenever these people check their bots for the gains) and make near 100% profit. And then, you're free to dump this kinah on your main or to trade it for real money with the method I mentioned above somewhere.

1 hour ago, Kailor-DN said:

 

[Mirelium-KT]

@Capa-KT why put it at 1 kinah? i trade with friends, never got snipped. I'm pretty sure, that friend won't mind giving 600 or 800 or 1000 kinah for a mat that costs normally idk 100k on broker let's say. Can't say if this happens on Elyos side, because i never put the item at 1 kinah. so that's my bad, i didn't have all the information apparently.   I will test this today on my side to see more. 

I said that the current system it is related to kinah sellers for one simple reason. if items are tradable, and i am a kinah seller, i can for example, trade you items that i farm or whatever, in value of X mount dollars, which you then put on broker. and get your kinah. Yes, i don't give you kinah directly but system could still be abused... Just saying. I am speculating since NC didn't disclosed any reason for most of the changes they made for 6.2, this one included. I was not referring to account wharehouse. But i do see your point regarding, how you might sell kinah. can't confirm, haven't been that much farming in safe zones.

I will contradict on one point, because i have proof you are wrong on something, I never said it's perfect system  i said and i quote "Yes it's not perfect".  

Ok now imma go check that elyos broker and see what's the deal with it

 

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